To pull someone up on their incorrect use of grammar in the classroom of children?

[biebersLadyLabyrinth]

I'm working with another TA (new to this job) until the term breaks and we're not getting on. I used to be a parent at the school and thought she didn't mind me as I wasn't a fussy parent (she's always had the reputation for being a bit scary-this said by children and parents alike but she was good to mine and our paths rarely crossed)

She's very cool with me which I can handle and furthermore if she doesn't like me no problem as long as we can get the job done.

She keeps criticising my using certain phrases like "splendid" or "Cheese and Crackers" as a child-friendly expletive even "marvellous" bothers her. This said, I've heard her over and over incorrectly speak to children. When one little boy told her his mum doesn't like him to say a phrase in that way-he was chided and told her way is perfectly ok.

I'm tempted to say something to her but worry she'll get a bit nasty.

Pengggwn - I don't know why that would make you hypocritical.

The children I know are always saying 'Miss says it all the time' when they're pulled up on grammar. And communication does have rules in a classroom - how teachers are addressed, for example. If you're trying to teach children standard grammar it's easier if everyone sticks to it in the classroom, isn't it?

The effectiveness of a lesson I taught that was assessed in a mock OFSTED funded by our SLT in anticipation of the real thing, was marked down for the poor SPAG of the (lovely) TA. They noted that I dealt with it well, - at one point she hovered, uncertain over a simple Entry Level 1 spelling that she was to write on the board as part of a game/exercise, and I covered by asking a learner to spell it without the class noticing, but it was still a negative. I think TAs' SPAG is judged to be important in terms of modelling.

No-one is immune, whether in or out of a classroom.

Pengggwn, as you seem to enjoy highlighting everyone else's errors, I thought I'd point out that 'no one' should not be hyphenated. So even you are not immune.

Sorry I've only had a few minutes to skim through these comments as my child decided to crack his head open pretty much the minute I hit the post button.

I am staggered at the response and the Enid Blighton comment really made me laugh- thank you.

Examples:

Jonny you done really well didn't you.

Well done class you done brilliant listening.

You was going to the other classroom you said

We didn't get no fruit for snack time so we will have crackers instead.

And I wouldn't DREAM of saying anything in front of the children. She's chipping away at me and I'm tempted to say something to her next time she tells me it's inappropriate to say Holy-Moly guacamole-in front of the class.

Yes
She has said to me that if the children repeat this in front of their parents- they will not be impressed.

I have also been told after calling someone's work splendid (I was not chugging back lashings of ginger ale at the time)

"What Miss Biebers means is that you done good-silly Miss Bieber"

gnashes teeth

Are educated TAs not actually available?

Right. Well those examples you give are just plain incorrect.
Can you mention it to her boss? A teacher/head of section or whatever?

And why on earth is there a problem with splendid? She sounds awful.

The TA should be using standard English in the classroom. It's that simple to me. Don't correct her in front of the children. To be honest, you may be better off speaking to the class teacher.

Teachers are never off duty when using language so your "being lazy" is unconvincing, frankly.
We are off duty when we aren't at work. E.g. I use regional dialect words and phrases not in the classroom, but I don't in the classroom because it's not appropriate to use regional dialect (teacher standards say we have to use standard English grammar).

How I speak in an informal setting is irrelevant as long as i use standard english in the classroom. How people type online/in texts to friends has nothing to do with their job.

Plus, anyone who has spent any time actually studying langauge would know that online and technological communication has developed into a hybrid of spoken and written langauge so people getting all wound uo on an Internet forum about 'correct' langauge use in replies only show their own lack of awareness of how langauge evolves. (My personal view is when a discussion ends up with posters going all SPAG warrior, it's time to disengage because they clearly have nothing else useful to say).

Pengggwn, all I mean is that the children do take it like they're being told off, and adults get away with it. That's how they tell the story later. However, this may be different depending on the area - I'm in a part of London where many of the children only hear 'go TO the toilet' at school, and are corrected when they say 'can I go toilet?' but other teachers say 'go toilet', so they are confused. In an area where most of the parents and teachers use standard grammar the odd error will be of little importance, as they're not being asked to speak differently in the classroom.

I'm terrible for saying 'less' when I mean 'fewer', as I was never formally taught grammar. If I was in a classroom situation I would pay attention to it as much as I do when I write, but I would also be happy with being corrected in front of the children, and by the children, as long as it was in a friendly way. I wouldn't expect everyone to be happy with that, though, because people often feel insecure about these things and think it's a judgement on their intelligence.

It's all a matter of context, isn't it. I was always pulled up for saying 'can I?' not 'may I?' But actually in a lot of situations, 'may I?' feels overly formal, so I end up correcting myself back the other way.

I agree that if you want people to model standard grammar in the classroom, then it should be part of the interview process, and I think most people, including TAs, should be paid more.

Hmmmmm

Informal English is still correct English, though. Some of you appear not to understand that whether you use formal or informal style, it should be correct.

You shouldn't be happy to be corrected in front of the children, or indeed by the children, Basket. Not if you're in the classroom in a teaching capacity yourself.
You should feel embarrassed, actually.

In other words, "You done well." is not informal style - it is the ungrammatical wittering of someone who does not actually know any better.

I don't think there should any necessity for accuracy in spelling or grammar when acting on an Internet forum. In fact, I think the title of this thread is open to misinterpretation to a greater extent than the quoted remarks of the TA. However, there is a need to be correct in the classroom.

Acting? Posting.

The point is you cannot just switch correctness on or off. You either know what is correct or you don't. Offering up a grammatical error up as a sign that you are relaxed, or no longer on duty, fools no one.

How difficult can it be to get your head around this?

Sigh...

Today 20:49 RoganJosh

Right. Well those examples you give are just plain incorrect.
Can you mention it to her boss? A teacher/head of section or whatever?

And why on earth is there a problem with splendid? She sounds awful.

Yep.

Some of the TAs in my school use grammar like this: 'what was you doing?' etc. It does grate, but generally they are great with the kids so we just let it go really.

If I didn't like a colleague and they spoke like that, it would really irritate me!

Why, would I be embarrassed to make a mistake, flogging?

If the sum was 2 x 7 and I wrote the answer as 41, rather than 14, I'd expect someone to point it out, and expect children to laugh. Being embarrassed wouldn't help, would it?

Informal English is still correct English, though. Some of you appear not to understand that whether you use formal or informal style, it should be correct
But if people actually study linguistics then they'd know it's standard and non standard English grammar.

Correct vs incorrect shows limited understanding of langauge. Non standard forms didn't come about because people were too lazy or thick to know otherwise (in fact that many non standard features actually predate the newer standard variations).
Nonstandard varieties are varieties of English that have developed over time alongside standard English (with some bizare origins e.g. putting silent b into words like debt because it then looks more like Latin / introducing the rule 'you can't split an infinitive' because in Latin you don't. In Latin you CAN'T because the infinitive is one word, but in English it's 2).

Should standard English be used in a range of contexts? Absolutely.

Should people hoik their judgey pants on as superior beings for using 'correct' English all the time and look down on those of us with regional dialects? No.

Should people be taught when to use standard / non standard forms and adjust their langauge appropriately? Yes.