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Sat I hairdressers on two seater couch and other woman waiting is chugging on e-cig

274 replies

whoahokeycokey · 30/06/2017 10:25

Just this really. I've got colour on waiting for it to take and as it's a small hairdressers (3 chairs) they rotate us whilst colour set etc. The woman next to me is chugging away on her e-cig. It stinks of some rancid sweet smell.
Why is it acceptable to whip these things out? I've noticed a lot that they are used in places where smoking is not allowed. I know my 2nd hand inhalation isn't going to cause me a great harm but it's making my teeth itch!

OP posts:
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Iwasjustabouttosaythat · 30/06/2017 12:06

Vaping is better than cigarettes, yes. There isn't yet enough information to say how bad it is but early reports are showing that it is indeed quite bad for you. Great to help people stop having cigarettes but can we stop pretending it's harmless for those who don't smoke? It's really not.

Health issues aside, it's bloody rude to vape indoors. I'm sure we'd agree if she were wafting incense in people's faces, or spray her perfume/deodorant about.

If you're at the salon you can expect to inhale hair product fumes. That's a given. Vaping indoors is rude and disgusting.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 30/06/2017 12:15

There isn't yet enough information to say how bad it is but early reports are showing that it is indeed quite bad for you

Do you have a link for the findings at all?

Eragonsegg · 30/06/2017 12:19

Just marking my bun fight spot!

blueskyinmarch · 30/06/2017 12:20

I hate the smell of vaping. It all smells sweet and sickly to me. On the other hand i love the smell of hairdressers. I don’t think they smell of harsh chemicals at all. Mine smells of coffee and clean hair being blow dried.

PencilsInSpace · 30/06/2017 12:27

There isn't yet enough information to say how bad it is but early reports are showing that it is indeed quite bad for you.

On the contrary, An expert review of the latest evidence concludes that e-cigarettes are around 95% safer than smoked tobacco From the UK government report.

can we stop pretending it's harmless for those who don't smoke? It's really not.

Maybe you need to take it up with the government who disagree with you: International peer-reviewed evidence indicates that the risk to the health of bystanders from exposure to e-cigarette vapour is extremely low. This is in contrast to the conclusive evidence of harm from exposure to secondhand smoke, which provides the basis for UK smokefree laws. The evidence of harm from secondhand exposure to vapour is not sufficient to justify the prohibition of e-cigarettes. Managers of public places and workplaces should ensure that this evidence informs their risk assessments

TimeFliesWhenYoureHavingGin · 30/06/2017 12:32

Ex smoker here, never went down the vape route (weren't available when I gave up).

Not sure how I feel about people vaping tbh. Doesn't really bother me, although when another parent stood vaping on the school car park, I did think can't you just wait 5 mins longer. Even when I smoked I was acutely aware that there were certain places that were a huge no no.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/06/2017 12:34

YANBU, vaping and smoking should be banned in all public places including outside.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/06/2017 12:34

And private places where the public are given entrance obvs

KeiraKnightleyActsWithHerTeeth · 30/06/2017 12:52

That report from PHE was funded by people inside the e-cigarette industry and the methodology of the report is highly questionable.

From The Lancet
secure.jbs.elsevierhealth.com/action/getSharedSiteSession?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelancet.com%2Fjournals%2Flancet%2Farticle%2FPIIS0140-6736%2815%2900042-2%2Ffulltext&rc=0&code=lancet-site

theymademejoin · 30/06/2017 13:35

Pencils - The statement The evidence of harm from secondhand exposure to vapour is not sufficient to justify the prohibition of e-cigarettes could have been used to describe ordinary cigarettes once upon a time too. They haven't been around long enough for reputable large scale, longitudinal studies to have been carried out.

I think erring on the side of caution, and not allowing their use in places where smoking is banned, would be the sensible approach to take. While some smokers are using them as a way to quit smoking, many are simply using them in order to get around the smoking ban. They are not pleasant to be around and I would prefer not to be exposed to them, regardless of the potential health risks.

There are also large numbers of children vaping now. The more visible and normalised vaping becomes, the more this is likely to happen. Is this something we really want to encourage?

PencilsInSpace · 30/06/2017 13:46

The PHE report was funded by the government.

The Nutt paper was one amongst 185 references, 184 of which the Lancet chose to ignore.

The Nutt paper was not funded by people from within the ecig industry. It declared potential COI on the grounds that two of the authors had previously had funding from the ecig industry for separate, small studies. Declaring COI in this way is normal for scientific papers and is done for reasons of transparency. It's not a reason to rubbish a study as invalid.

There was a fair amount of correspondence in response to the Lancet's hatchet job editorial:

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(15)00079-3/fulltext

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(15)00133-6/fulltext

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(15)00107-5/fulltext

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(15)00253-6/fulltext

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(15)00145-2/fulltext

In response to the continuing bullshit row, PHE issued a strongly worded joint statement, together with:

Action on Smoking and Health
Association of Directors of Public Health
British Lung Foundation
Cancer Research UK
Faculty of Public Health
Fresh North East
Healthier Futures
Public Health Action (PHA)
Royal College of Physicians
Royal Society for Public Health
UK Centre for Tobacco and Alcohol Studies
UK Health Forum

I can't believe we are still having to go over this crap! It's almost as if you're hoping ecigs will turn out to be deadly.

Sat I hairdressers on two seater couch and other woman waiting is chugging on e-cig
Butterymuffin · 30/06/2017 13:47

My workplace does not allow vaping on the basis that it's too early to discount risks to others and they would rather err on the side of caution. Fine by me. Surely smokers have got used to going outside now?

Ollivander84 · 30/06/2017 13:52

Buttery - but vapers are not smokers. Fine if you can stand separately but they shouldn't have to stand with smokers

MissionItsPossible · 30/06/2017 13:58

It all depends on the hairdressers. I've grew my hair quite long over the last few years after years and years of always having it shaved so as such I now visit a ladies hairdresser owned by a family friend. I only ever went to barbers before and it was done in 5 or 10 minutes. Now it can take hours, especially waiting around, so I vape as and when I want to (with the hairdressers permission as she does it too). Sorry ladies, but I'm still not use to the smell of hair dyes and all the other stuff so I'm glad my vape smell temporarily masks it.

WomblingThree · 30/06/2017 14:00

ItsAllGoingToBeFine genuine question, do you think cars and factories should be banned too?

MidniteScribbler · 30/06/2017 14:46

If you can't smoke there, then you shouldn't vape there.

PencilsInSpace · 30/06/2017 14:56

The statement The evidence of harm from secondhand exposure to vapour is not sufficient to justify the prohibition of e-cigarettes could have been used to describe ordinary cigarettes once upon a time too. They haven't been around long enough for reputable large scale, longitudinal studies to have been carried out.

You missed the start of that quote: International peer-reviewed evidence indicates that the risk to the health of bystanders from exposure to e-cigarette vapour is extremely low. They may not have been around for long enough to do large scale longitudinal studies but in the 10+ years they have been around ecigs have been extensively tested and analysed. The 95% safer figure refers to the risk for vapers themselves who are inhaling vapour frequently and long term.

PHE have stated exactly what this figure is based on (see 'Author's note on evidence ...):

The constituents of cigarette smoke that harm health – including carcinogens – are either absent in e-cigarette vapour or, if present, they are mostly at levels much below 5% of smoking doses (mostly below 1% and far below safety limits for occupational exposure)

The main chemicals present in e-cigarettes only have not been associated with any serious risk

Some flavourings and constituents in e-cigarettes may pose risks over the long term. We consider the 5% residual risk to be a cautious estimate allowing for this uncertainty.

Potential harm to bystanders in light of these facts is immeasurably small because you are just catching an occasional whiff.

E-cigarette use, known as vaping, is not covered by smokefree legislation. E-cigarettes do not burn tobacco and do not create smoke. While debate continues about their absolute level of safety, the consensus across England’s public health community is that e-cigarettes are significantly safer for users than smoked tobacco. An independent review of the latest evidenceii published by Public Health England (PHE) in 2015 found that, based on the international peer-reviewed evidence, vaping is around 95% safer for users than smoking. It also confirmed the findings of PHE’s 2014 independent evidence review,iii that there is no evidence of harm to bystanders from exposure to e-cigarette vapour and the risks to their health are likely to be extremely low. (from Govt. guidance on use of ecigs in public places and workplaces)

I think erring on the side of caution, and not allowing their use in places where smoking is banned, would be the sensible approach to take.

If you are going to use the 'precautionary principle' you need to look at the risks of both action and inaction (permitting and prohibiting ecigs in public places). This is covered in the guide linked above. The risks of prohibiting vaping everywhere smoking is banned include:

Giving the impression that vaping is as harmful as smoking
Making it more difficult for smokers to switch because of the different rate of nicotine absorption when using ecigs (discussed up-thread)
Making it just as convenient to smoke as to vape
Jeopardising vapers' efforts to quit smoking by sending them to stand with smokers

The risks of banning vaping where smoking is banned boil down to making it less likely that smokers will switch to vaping. We know that 50% of long term smokers will die prematurely from their habit, losing on average a decade of life, so these risks are important to consider, hence the PHE guidance.

While some smokers are using them as a way to quit smoking, many are simply using them in order to get around the smoking ban.

It doesn't make any sense to talk of 'getting around the smoking ban' by doing something that isn't smoking Confused Almost all vapers are either ex-smokers or current smokers trying to quit or cut down. Frankly I don't care if for some, their initial motivation to try vaping is that they can do it indoors. They might just discover it works, which could lead to a concerted attempt to quit smoking in favour of vaping. This is a good thing and PHE have covered it in their guidance:

to maximise the number of smokers switching to e-cigarettes, vaping should be made a more convenient, as well as safer, option

They are not pleasant to be around and I would prefer not to be exposed to them, regardless of the potential health risks.

Well gosh, if we are going to start banning things just because we personally find them unpleasant and would rather not be exposed to them, I have quite a list Grin Shall we start a new thread?

There are also large numbers of children vaping now. The more visible and normalised vaping becomes, the more this is likely to happen. Is this something we really want to encourage?

Children are experimenting with vaping but the number using them regularly without first having been smokers is vanishingly low. This too is covered in the evidence report and in the public places guidance. I'm getting bored of C&P now though, how about you try reading them? ASH do a good factsheet on children and vaping as well.

As time goes on, and the uptake of smoking among children continues to fall rapidly, we might start to see a number of young people who would otherwise have started smoking taking up regular vaping instead. This is a good thing as vaping shows no evidence of being a 'gateway' to smoking and these children won't be facing a 50% chance of early death.

Also, of course, vaping (like smoking) is far more visible to children if everyone is sent outside to do it.

Butterymuffin · 30/06/2017 15:09

So it's more visible to children if people do it away from them? Confused

NotACleverName · 30/06/2017 15:14

YANBU, vaping and smoking should be banned in all public places including outside.

Where the fuck are people meant to vape then?

I'm surprised popcorn lung hasn't been brought up yet.

SheSaidHeSaid · 30/06/2017 15:15

The sickly sweet vape smell makes me heave. I'd go in to the hairdressers expecting to smell dye, hair spray, etc but not that rank sweet smell.

PencilsInSpace · 30/06/2017 15:25

So it's more visible to children if people do it away from them?

'Outside' =/= 'away from children'

while smokefree law protects people from the harm of secondhand smoke, forcing smokers outdoors has increased public visibility of smoking, including to children and young people. Having a more enabling approach to vaping can mitigate this and help make smoking less of a social norm

(From the same government report linked above that none of you can apparently be bothered to read)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/06/2017 15:32

ItsAllGoingToBeFine genuine question, do you think cars and factories should be banned too

Cars and factories don't stink

Where the fuck are people meant to vape then

On their own properties or in designated smoking areas.

sodablackcurrant · 30/06/2017 15:43

I think it just boils down to manners.

If I were a vaper and if I were in the salon, first thing I would do is ask "do you mind if I have a puff on this"?

If the answer is "sorry I'd prefer if you didn't" I would go to the loo and do it, or go outside, or just not do it.

Manners please, not entitlement or taking things for granted. Most people don't mind.

But many do, not from any evidence that it is harmful, just because it is fashionable to be anti everything. I suppose it comes from the power to dictate to others, and for some that is soooo satisfying.

But looking forward to the bun fight!

PencilsInSpace · 30/06/2017 15:46

Government guidance states: it is never acceptable to require vapers to share the same outdoor space with smokers. Where a designated outdoor smoking area has been provided in a public place or workplace, vapers should be allowed to vape elsewhere (ref. as above)

theymademejoin · 30/06/2017 16:03

Pencil - no, I didn't miss that bit. 10+ years is not sufficient for proper, large scale, longitudinal research, particularly as they have not been in common use for 10+ years. They were used by small numbers up until quite recently.

Your point on the risks of action vs inaction, while valid, presupposes that the rights of the smoker trump the rights of a non-smoker. In your list of risks you have ignored the fact that the long term impact of secondhand vaping cannot be known at this point, thus exposing bystanders may potentially be dangerous.

The CDC disagrees with your statement that young people who are vaping are already smokers. The US Surgeon General also believes exposure to vaping is bad for children. Both views based on research.

While e-cigs pollute the air less than tobacco products, they still release nicotine and particulate matter into the air. Other studies have shown that cotinine (our bodies metabolise nicotine into cotinine) can be found in the blood of passive vapers.

The main issue is that, while there is research out there, much of it is contradictory or inconclusive. There is no longitudinal research as the times scales are too short.

Nobody is arguing with the fact vaping is less dangerous than smoking to vapers and passive vapers. However, as it stands, if vaping turns out to be dangerous to passive vapers, I am more at risk from vaping than smoking as I can completely avoid being in an enclosed area with smokers. I cannot do the same for vapers.

Therefore, until more conclusive evidence exists, why potentially put the health of non-vapers at risk in the same way as was done to non-smokers? Why not err on the side of caution by learning from the mistakes of the past?

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