to talk me off the ledge regarding 'female impersonators'

[Morphene]

before I give a friend on facebook both barrels?

Seriously can someone explain to me how being a 'female impersonator' is a career when it seems like being an 'ethnic minority impersonator' went out of fashion about a century ago? I also don't see any 'gay impersonators' or for that matter 'male impersonators' out there either.

Why is this a thing and how can I untwist my knickers before I lose a friend who continuously posts rupaul drag race BS all over facebook?

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Because any bloke can claim his female impersonation is meant to be affectionate, or some shit. that made me

[Notmyrealname85]

Not sure you get to keep Priscilla if you don't like drag?! It's about a queen! It literally is drag, she's the most famous drag character!

Sort of joking but it's actually very scary people are so dismissive of drag but seemingly haven't been to shows, met queens, seen any documentaries or other materials. Not just about where drag came from but what it means now. On principle, subverting feminine norms and not sending us up isn't hurtful to us. Remember most shows are attended by gay guys and women; and the queens know gay culture sells so their reference points are gay culture and gay men, not straight women. I genuinely don't think I've been to a show that even mentioned straight women. And unlike some men, queens don't push their ideals on us - the lack of sexual attraction helps!

And yet straight culture has taken a lot of what drag made. So much you know of theatre and musicals comes from drag - all female pop stars steal from drag. Ridiculously the contouring trend was taken from the beauty queens - people make big big money off stealing drag ideas and popularising it, making it straight-acceptable. Easy example again - the producers of a show in America called Lip Sync Battle have readily admitted to this, they took the idea from drag shows. It's campy and fun, but made safe and straight friendly.

I'm not going to get into a debate as to who is generally worse off, straight women or gay men. It's case by case. But these gay man have no privileges - you don't like them, 90% of straight men don't like them, gay people are often embarrassed by that kitschy side of things. Crime against drag queens is exceptionally high, even in London. They're an inconvenience against the misogynistic ideals we're fed, but you want to label them only as men and therefore a threat. You're editing our their entire gay identity so you can say they're privileged, and it's just not true. Gay people aren't even safe in London, neve mind if they're men dressed in heels.

Some posters here have now named some dozen or more queens. I've linked to videos showing what they're like out of drag so you can see them as "human". You have a link to a seminal documentary - watch it. I'm not sure any of you have seen a show, know queens or the different categories of drag even.

You get the benefits of their culture, but you don't want to know the queens themselves and you want to claim they're privileged but you don't want to know their lives.

The posters here who are supportive of drag - we're not trying to win internet points, or trendy points. It's genuinely genuinely an incredibly supportive, empathetic, creative, subversive, "stick it to the patriarchy" culture. It's energetic and sassy, and yes can be crass - or it can be high fashion, it can be clever and witty, it has attitude and is full of very resilient characters. The latest winner of the Rupaul show (spoiler) is a Fulbright scholar who is incredibly gender-issue sensitive.

[Notmyrealname85]

The Priscilla film is an interesting example - any of the three main characters in that film could've been played by queens or at least gay men. Why were straight men cast? Because it's easier to draw crowds and get financial backing - much like Suchet in Ernest.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

tl:dr

Your posts have been so long and involved and are basically telling women what we should think. There's a word for that!

Pricilla is a film about men dressing as women. It's different to men dressing as women. A film about blackface would be different to actual blackface.

'It's art' and 'it's well-intentioned' and god forbid 'it's just a laugh' have been used to shut women up for ever. I get that these men can be talented, but when is it not either; parodying, appropriating, pretending to be or laughing at women? All of which are out of bounds for other groups.

[MrsDustyBusty]

So, how do you defend the whole "fishy" thing then, if it's not the most revolting misogyny, what is it?

[Notmyrealname85]

Pricilla is a film about men dressing as women. It's different to men dressing as women. A film about blackface would be different to actual blackface erm... this makes no sense? It's drag is what it is, you like drag. A film about blackface, featuring blackface now would still be blackface and massively offensive. A film about drag featuring men in drag is still drag. You like drag...

"Fishy" is shorthand for "looking like a woman" i.e. "looking like what society thinks women are". They want to look pretty. That's dresses and makeup and stuff. "Fishy" is just shorthand for pretty.

I look like a woman, but in the real sense - sometimes I wear make-up, sometimes jeans, sometimes overalls. I'm not "fishy". They're not trying to be a woman, they just want to wear what we get to sometimes wear. They're also not trying to enforce that stereotype on us, that we all have to be pretty (as men have in the past).

[WellErrr]

However, Ru Paul etc don't bother me because they look absolutely nothing like actual women. They dress and perform in a ludicrously exaggerated feminine style, miles away from how most women present, even make up and heels loving women. They make no effort to 'pass' as women, and the whole thing seems to be about being as fake and over the top as possible

But this is why it's so offensive. It's the caricature.

If you did the same thing with any other group of people, grossly emphasising all their distinguishing features, it would be illegal and certainly not tolerated.

Imagine someone blacking up, with huge fake lips and huge fake bum and hips, saying 'yessir, Lordy me, yesssir' whilst slapping their knee and smiling with a set of massive bright white fake teeth.
It would be incredibly offensive. Even writing that makes me wonder if it will get deleted.

It's no different to what these tossers do when they impersonate women.

[Notmyrealname85]

Your "tldr" is pretty dumb when you're asking for a discussion, and we're giving you not only our own real life experiences but also things you can read up on

It's fine to agree to disagree when you've even read people's posts, but it seems like you're not even doing that

[Notmyrealname85]

So what about violet Chachki is offensive?

[MrsTerryPratchett]

You're assuming people's experiences. I spent most of my 20s hanging out with gay and trans and androgynous peeps. I spent a lot of time in the scene and know and love and miss a lot of people in that world.

I also got threatened and very nearly punched by a man in the ladies at Madame Jo Jo's who took offence to me saying their companion looked incredible. Like the absolute spot of JLo. It was an amazing job. And JLo himself was flattered. So don't tell me men aren't a threat to women.

tl:dr was a point. Just writing teams of text explaining why women are wrong about their own experiences is tedious.

[MrsDustyBusty]

"Fishy" is shorthand for "looking like a woman" i.e. "looking like what society thinks women are". They want to look pretty. That's dresses and makeup and stuff. "Fishy" is just shorthand for pretty.

Well that's the most generous interpretation possible, when it's a reference to the extremely misogynistic trope about women's vaginas smelling of fish.

[Notmyrealname85]

I'm not going over the same points we've covered...

Drag is about "feminity" not inherent womanhood

Most drag doesn't reference women, it's gay culture

Lots of drag artists don't do the fake tits and ass thing, when they do it's for the luxury and beauty in their aesthetic

Most queens don't mention women because they don't do spoken word, they do lip syncs and burlesque

Queens don't benefit from male privilege like most men

Queens don't want to be females

Drag kings exist - it works both ways, and they're encouraged

On and on we go

[WellErrr]

Mumsnet sometimes provides a absolutely fascinating insight into how little some men think of women, and how much they think of themselves and their ideas

[Notmyrealname85]

Yes because straight men used that slang of "fishy" against women - and queens stole it to mock them for being misogynistic

[WellErrr]

Not do you think that impersonating a woman for entertainment is different to impersonating a black man for entertainment?

Genuine question.

[Notmyrealname85]

Yes our ideas..: because we have them... and why is this wrong?!

Mrs I'm sorry to hear about that! Sounds awful - I suppose any part of the population is horrid, but wouldn't think it's more common in queens. Horrid all the same, should've been chucked out!! I hope you reported them

[sleighbellend]

It's not gay men's place to reclaim slurs against women, any more than it is straight women's place to reclaim slurs against gay men.

[Notmyrealname85]

They aren't impersonating a woman, they want to look pretty...

Who told you that sparkly dresses and heels were compulsory?

If they're doing a celebrity impersonation it's usually because they're doing a set piece for their lip sync, but impersonating as a female would. I don't think their gender brings anything different to that (I personally don't enjoy e.g. ten Britney songs in a row)

[Notmyrealname85]

They don't spend their time reclaiming though, that's only one small part of it.

It truly is the most anti-misogyny stuff I've seen, and not to women's expense (again, they reference gay culture)

[sleighbellend]

well that one small part of it is pretty misogynistic, so i think i'll pass, thanks.

[MrsDustyBusty]

Yes because straight men used that slang of "fishy" against women - and queens stole it to mock them for being misogynistic

They did, yeah.

[WellErrr]

They aren't impersonating a woman, they want to look pretty...

Sorry - indulge me; you're saying that drag queens are not impersonating women?

Really?

Are you thick? Or do you think we are?

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I think there are a number of men who wear dresses who aren't any patriarchal issue per se. Brian Molko, formally Eddie Izard (but not any more), possibly Grayson Perry. Men who don't call themselves women or use female descriptors (queen, she), don't parody women, don't feel entitled to invade women's space, don't use repulsive words for women (fishy) and don't generally insult us. But once you call yourself a female name, wear traditionally female clothes and use the women's loo, you lose the right to pretend it's nothing to do with women.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Oh and maybe ask ask some lesbians if gay men have male privilege. All the lesbians I know think they do.

[Notmyrealname85]

Yeah, they're not

They want to look pretty. Dresses and wigs and lashes are pretty. Society has told us this is what women should look like. Queens don't want to be women, otherwise they'd also be in pjs on Mumsnet this evening. You could say "oh they're taking stereotypes of womanhood" - that's just because this is what was pushed on us.

These men are coming at it from a completely different angle - they wanted the pretty, glamour stuff but were told they couldn't because that's not what men are. They wanted to access that stuff but were abused for it. Not because they want to be women, they want to dress however they want.

As above (few pages back) - you wouldn't look at many queens nowadays, who go for futuristic or punk or arty or even "fishy" looks and think "theres a woman". They wear what we've been told are women's things, but they are very clear about you knowing they're queens.

They also rarely reference straight women - why would they to a mostly gay crowd? They're not interested in oppressing women, how would a misogynistic society benefit this group? What men are on their side - is Offred going to be led away by a queen? The very men who are misogynistic and attack us are the very ones who'd go for the queens first. So we have a common enemy - and queens aren't coming for us anyway