to talk me off the ledge regarding 'female impersonators'

[Morphene]

before I give a friend on facebook both barrels?

Seriously can someone explain to me how being a 'female impersonator' is a career when it seems like being an 'ethnic minority impersonator' went out of fashion about a century ago? I also don't see any 'gay impersonators' or for that matter 'male impersonators' out there either.

Why is this a thing and how can I untwist my knickers before I lose a friend who continuously posts rupaul drag race BS all over facebook?

[7Days]

But if the performers are called she how is it not about women?
Any other performer is just themselves when out of the role. Nobody refers to an actor as their characters name when they are just going about it ordinary life.

[Morphene]

whitemanc yes...there is definitely an element of that in it for me. It feels like piss take and parody because it is aspiring to a concept that women have been trying to ditch for the last n years.

It feels like they are forcing that stereotype back on us. All the 'wow she looks better than any born woman could' stuff is just so toxic.

[WhiteMane]

And gay men and many women are every bit as mysogynistic as straight men are

[WhiteMane]

Morphene -going back a couple of pages now- isn't the problem that rather than just being exaggerated caricatures of femininity that they are exaggerated caricatures of what are or are considered to be derogatory aspects of femininity? Do we really care if a woman 'butches' up and does a John Wayne walk? Nope, and why would we when it's considered positive masculinity. Being superficial, vain, dim and hypersexualised and considered shameful, that these are not innate to females makes it worse imo.

Re: origins of blackface and it being so different, males playing both male and female roles was normal at one point in time also.

[Toysaurus]

I'm so tired today I can't get my head around some of the finer discussion. I can't categorise drag in the same way I find black face abhorrent.

I'm a boring, heterosexual woman who doesn't even wear make up. I don't know if it's because I spent my teens and twenties on the goth and gay scene but drag doesn't make me bat an eyelid as being anything less than another version of 'normal'.

And I'm keeping Priscilla.

[Notmyrealname85]

We should resume our custody battle of Priscilla another time though

[Notmyrealname85]

Gender bending feels offensive because they're messing with something we've been told to aspire to

I'm not offended by it! I actually have to do some laundry but I will say that from rupaul alone you have several million fanc (inc women!) so there's quite a lot of convincing us to be done :)

[user1487175389]

It's offensive. Woman-face is as unacceptable as the black and white minstrel show.

[WellErrr]

Dresses and wigs and lashes are pretty. Society has told us this is what women should look like

And yet they're not impersonating women?

[Notmyrealname85]

Yeah, they're not

They want to look pretty. Dresses and wigs and lashes are pretty. Society has told us this is what women should look like. Queens don't want to be women, otherwise they'd also be in pjs on Mumsnet this evening. You could say "oh they're taking stereotypes of womanhood" - that's just because this is what was pushed on us.

These men are coming at it from a completely different angle - they wanted the pretty, glamour stuff but were told they couldn't because that's not what men are. They wanted to access that stuff but were abused for it. Not because they want to be women, they want to dress however they want.

As above (few pages back) - you wouldn't look at many queens nowadays, who go for futuristic or punk or arty or even "fishy" looks and think "theres a woman". They wear what we've been told are women's things, but they are very clear about you knowing they're queens.

They also rarely reference straight women - why would they to a mostly gay crowd? They're not interested in oppressing women, how would a misogynistic society benefit this group? What men are on their side - is Offred going to be led away by a queen? The very men who are misogynistic and attack us are the very ones who'd go for the queens first. So we have a common enemy - and queens aren't coming for us anyway

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Oh and maybe ask ask some lesbians if gay men have male privilege. All the lesbians I know think they do.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I think there are a number of men who wear dresses who aren't any patriarchal issue per se. Brian Molko, formally Eddie Izard (but not any more), possibly Grayson Perry. Men who don't call themselves women or use female descriptors (queen, she), don't parody women, don't feel entitled to invade women's space, don't use repulsive words for women (fishy) and don't generally insult us. But once you call yourself a female name, wear traditionally female clothes and use the women's loo, you lose the right to pretend it's nothing to do with women.

[WellErrr]

They aren't impersonating a woman, they want to look pretty...

Sorry - indulge me; you're saying that drag queens are not impersonating women?

Really?

Are you thick? Or do you think we are?

[MrsDustyBusty]

Yes because straight men used that slang of "fishy" against women - and queens stole it to mock them for being misogynistic

They did, yeah.

[sleighbellend]

well that one small part of it is pretty misogynistic, so i think i'll pass, thanks.

[Notmyrealname85]

They don't spend their time reclaiming though, that's only one small part of it.

It truly is the most anti-misogyny stuff I've seen, and not to women's expense (again, they reference gay culture)

[Notmyrealname85]

They aren't impersonating a woman, they want to look pretty...

Who told you that sparkly dresses and heels were compulsory?

If they're doing a celebrity impersonation it's usually because they're doing a set piece for their lip sync, but impersonating as a female would. I don't think their gender brings anything different to that (I personally don't enjoy e.g. ten Britney songs in a row)

[sleighbellend]

It's not gay men's place to reclaim slurs against women, any more than it is straight women's place to reclaim slurs against gay men.

[Notmyrealname85]

Yes our ideas..: because we have them... and why is this wrong?!

Mrs I'm sorry to hear about that! Sounds awful - I suppose any part of the population is horrid, but wouldn't think it's more common in queens. Horrid all the same, should've been chucked out!! I hope you reported them

[WellErrr]

Not do you think that impersonating a woman for entertainment is different to impersonating a black man for entertainment?

Genuine question.

[Notmyrealname85]

Yes because straight men used that slang of "fishy" against women - and queens stole it to mock them for being misogynistic

[WellErrr]

Mumsnet sometimes provides a absolutely fascinating insight into how little some men think of women, and how much they think of themselves and their ideas

[Notmyrealname85]

I'm not going over the same points we've covered...

Drag is about "feminity" not inherent womanhood

Most drag doesn't reference women, it's gay culture

Lots of drag artists don't do the fake tits and ass thing, when they do it's for the luxury and beauty in their aesthetic

Most queens don't mention women because they don't do spoken word, they do lip syncs and burlesque

Queens don't benefit from male privilege like most men

Queens don't want to be females

Drag kings exist - it works both ways, and they're encouraged

On and on we go

[MrsDustyBusty]

"Fishy" is shorthand for "looking like a woman" i.e. "looking like what society thinks women are". They want to look pretty. That's dresses and makeup and stuff. "Fishy" is just shorthand for pretty.

Well that's the most generous interpretation possible, when it's a reference to the extremely misogynistic trope about women's vaginas smelling of fish.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

You're assuming people's experiences. I spent most of my 20s hanging out with gay and trans and androgynous peeps. I spent a lot of time in the scene and know and love and miss a lot of people in that world.

I also got threatened and very nearly punched by a man in the ladies at Madame Jo Jo's who took offence to me saying their companion looked incredible. Like the absolute spot of JLo. It was an amazing job. And JLo himself was flattered. So don't tell me men aren't a threat to women.

tl:dr was a point. Just writing teams of text explaining why women are wrong about their own experiences is tedious.