to talk me off the ledge regarding 'female impersonators'

[Morphene]

before I give a friend on facebook both barrels?

Seriously can someone explain to me how being a 'female impersonator' is a career when it seems like being an 'ethnic minority impersonator' went out of fashion about a century ago? I also don't see any 'gay impersonators' or for that matter 'male impersonators' out there either.

Why is this a thing and how can I untwist my knickers before I lose a friend who continuously posts rupaul drag race BS all over facebook?

Is being female a "culture?"

By the way, I believe cultural appropriation is mostly another way to grab headlines and be professionally offended.

Few "cultures" seem to care about being appropriated if they're making money from it. Sorry, very cynical. (And I include my own culture in this.)

I don't understand...

Are we saying that only women can be glamorous, beautiful etc? Whatever societal "femininity" is shorthand for.

Being territorial about this societal "femininity" seems scary to me - I don't want people saying only women can be this or that...because we think it's protecting what we like ... but it also excludes what we can be. It becomes this thing of only what we should be.

A man wanting to be that sort of "feminine" (just shorthand for all those societal values - beauty, glamour etc) - isn't stealing your chance to do it too. You can look stunning, and so can they!

Basically I don't like the idea of "these men are stealing women's look!", cos not all of us always like wearing dresses and being glamorous. And I don't want to be held to those "feminine" standards

Also I don't think we realise how crossdressing (drag) has helped us / it works both ways.

Here's Marlene Dietrich - you can thank her for us being able to wear suits. She popularised this look - and this helped open up the whole idea of women being able to wear trousers.

costumesociety.org.uk/blog/post/its-a-mans-world-marlene-dietrich-and-her-cross-dressing-wardrobe

A man wanting to be that sort of "feminine" (just shorthand for all those societal values - beauty, glamour etc) - isn't stealing your chance to do it too.

Yeah, I think you're wide of the mark by some considerable distance if you think that the problem with drag is that women can't make screech unkind remarks in poorly fitting wigs because of it.

So you don't like bad drag?

Yes, no one likes bad drag...

I think women have a culture. As much as any other discrete group does. In the small c meaning. Otherwise, what are people impersonating?

Basically my point is that it doesn't matter how celebratory your caricature is, it's still a caricature.

So you don't like bad drag?

Its all a grotesque parody of women so I find it all equally bad.

Fishy. FFS.

What is that women's culture?

Because if it's the traditional look - a lot of us don't subscribe to that. I don't want to be in pretty dresses and heels, and lots of others are the same. Not because one is good or bad taste or whatever - it's just personal preference :)

And a lot of that "culture" isn't what women pushed for alone, it's what we've been told to like. For example - heels came about because they make us look dainty to men - that's why the first heels were made (in the French court). Now they can represent anything but that's where they came from - and a lot of other "feminine" things. It's from male sexual preference.

Or.... this traditional idea isn't female culture? Or is only part of it?

In which case we don't have a homogenous female culture. Just like men shouldn't have a set culture, and we should all be able to blend and bend to what we like!

... gosh I should take my trousers off then! I don't want to look like a grotesque parody of a man! :P

And there was me thinking this was going to be a thread about Tracey Ullman...

I was very confused... 🤔

Maybe culture is to race as gender is to sex.

There are many aspects of Black American culture that were part of oppression; n word being the obvious one but there are others.

Whether gender is imposed or not (and I think it is) it's still dodgy to wear it as parody. In fact, it might be worse in some ways.

Even if the sources of male and female "culture" are from bad sources (e.g. heels!) the freedom is in us still going for it - if we like it, and it's not being pushed on us :)

I don't mind anyone parodying it, wanting to emulate it, whatever - the male/female ideals are ridiculous, and I don't mind what people do with them. We didn't make them!

Ok if men came for us - not some stupid ideals we've been given - e.g. saying we're biologically less intelligent...then hold me back, I'm fuming

I am not educated about this.

Where does Lily Savage fit in? Because I don't remember her being particularly misogynistic (could be wrong, will go back and re-watch). I do remember her being very funny and the way she spoke wasn't too much different to people I grew up watching (from a safe distance).

It seemed to me like a feminine form of humour and perhaps that's why she dressed like that.

Did Paul O'Grady not base Lilly on his aunt, who he adored, and other fiercely strong women who formed the foundation of his life? She may have been as rough as a badger's arse but Lilly was a celebration of female strength. Also, without question, the best agony aunt ever to have featured on daytime ITV!

Thank you for the interesting view points.

There is certainly more to this than whats on the surface.

I think I struggle to get past the fact it is exaggerated caricatures of femininity that are being played for entertainment.

I mean just blacking up to play a role is bad enough...but doing it to portray an outdated caricature of black culture for laughs? That would be off the chart wouldn't it?

The drag queens appear to be targeting as success an image of femininity that portrays all the negative stereotypes we have been trying to rid ourselves of for decades. We aren't just our looks, we aren't about glamour, we aren't about being bitchy or cat-fighty, we aren't crying because someone copied our look or stole our face paint!

Most of all I think that men who want to enter beauty pageants are 'beauty queen impersonators' (or possible just 'beauty queens') but they absolutely are NOT 'female impersonators' because the overwhelming majority of all things female has moved on by about 50 years from where they are.

Eddie Izzard is another example, from the same era as Lily Savage. He's a lot more masculine, but the lipstick and feminine persona is more a part of who he is. He doesn't even identify as strongly transgenger, more as a transvestite.

And then Grayson Perry.

I just think, if you want to wear a skirt and lipstick, then knock yourself out. I won't be joining you!

I think these guys might have been the start of modern drag, though. Having said that. I still find les Dawson's drag character mostly fucking hilarious, simply because I knew women just like that, back in the day!

I really really don't think of Eddie Izzard as a female impersonator. IS that the way he identifies? I see him as a funny bloke who tells great jokes and just happens to be wearing sparkly dresses. None of the humour is driven by what he is wearing. It is a million miles from whatever Ru Paul is about.

apparently Izzard has stated that his cross dressing is not part of his performance. So that is a big BIG difference.

Performing while dressed in stereotypically female clothing isn't the same as the clothing being a part of the performance.

I guess I never thought of it that way, but it was obvious to my subconscious because I have never once felt offended at anything Izzard has worn or anything in his shows.

5 seconds watching drag race and my skin was crawling.

I see all your points about drag acts OP
trying to turn it around what about french and saunders when they did those 2 fat blokes who humped everything?
Or Kathy Burk playing Kevins sidekick Perry?

Here's a mix of some new queens :) The queens of a current season of a popular drag show are here - they mostly go for a futuristic look:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=08TcFPMHTes

Now in that show (RuPaul) they welcome female and male contestants - drag is gender bending, so anything goes.

Here are examples of queens, some in and out of make-up:

Valentina - inspired by telenovelas, cheesy films and what sounds like a very glamorous mother! m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tt4LPrNCdo

Here's a "fashion" queen who sews all her own looks: m.youtube.com/watch?v=6PqUpTjbWaQ

Another called Farrah just likes the very pretty look - m.youtube.com/watch?v=K2DCxI6qTfU

Violet Chachki - more into burlesque looks. Her instagram is full of beautiful dresses - she does shows with Dita Von Teese m.youtube.com/watch?v=_3xN8XPRVeg

This is a big ask! But there's a great documentary about drag in NY in the 80s. It's on YouTube: m.youtube.com/watch?v=hedJer7I1vI

If you watch the film (big ask!) you'll see that drag queens then didn't do as many shows just for entertainment - they weren't on telly or doing big comedy sets. What they did were "Balls" for their own enjoyment - and had competitions, a lot like cos-play. These were very poor, usually black men, and the competitions at the Balls would be in different categories. Some categories were dressing like a woman but some are dressing like a successful businessman, or a man in the army. It was striving for a fantasy they couldn't attain.

I hope all the links work!

Why not just ignore or hide your friends post on FB. Why do you feel that you need to respond to her posts 'with both barrels'?

I'm sorry, I can't sleep :( here are some lip sync performances - this is why I watch drag, not for comedy. I like a good dance show!!

Blondie (performed in front of Blondie!) m.youtube.com/watch?v=qxAv08CXgzI

Natalie Cole (performed in front of Natalie Cole!) m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ddnv7V1WF4

I'm every woman (ironic! But my absolute fave!!) m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf7Z2r5kAhU

Olivia newton john (in front of Olivia newton john): m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs0MzhB-9FY

You're going to love me: m.youtube.com/watch?v=0EWV03g1xYA

Anywayyyyyy that's why I love drag - performance! Love a good lip sync

Seriously can someone explain to me how being a 'female impersonator' is a career when it seems like being an 'ethnic minority impersonator' went out of fashion about a century ago?

About a century ago, the Black and White minstrel show was on til the late 70s!

But anyway, blackface is a grotesque parody of black people's physical features.

Drag involves subverting gender norms of dress and deportment which are culturally determined. There's nothing biological that determines that by and large women where high heels and cocktail dresses and high heels but men don't.

Also swapping or subverting gender norms is a two way process and the same pantomimes that feature dames, almost inevitably feature a principal boy, who gives an exaggeratedly masculine performance. Likewise female performers from Vesta Fillet in the musical hall days to Tracy Ullman have impersonated men. Gender swapping is also a key plot point in Twelfth Night.

Fyi Eddie Izzard now says he is a MtT and also a 'lesbian'.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2959353-Eddie-Izzard

Because sexism is still widely acceptable in a way that racism and homophobia isn't. Women objecting are just told to 'lighten up love its only a bit of fun'.