to talk me off the ledge regarding 'female impersonators'

[Morphene]

before I give a friend on facebook both barrels?

Seriously can someone explain to me how being a 'female impersonator' is a career when it seems like being an 'ethnic minority impersonator' went out of fashion about a century ago? I also don't see any 'gay impersonators' or for that matter 'male impersonators' out there either.

Why is this a thing and how can I untwist my knickers before I lose a friend who continuously posts rupaul drag race BS all over facebook?

Please don't churn that out barbara. I am a woman, but I'm also not white and not straight. I can tell you for free that sexism, homophobia and racism are still very much acceptable and equalnparts of my life.

fauch I'm really sorry to hear that. It looks from the outside that the stereotyping around gay/straight/bi is eroding a lot faster than that around male/female. But maybe that isn't what you see from inside?

How would you feel about straight women performing an exaggerated caricature of lesbian women with or without lip sync performances?

notmyreal okay so I watched the first of the video clips and it is just crass and horrible.

The quality of the performing is really low. I mean if a bunch of women were doing that and they made it to the stage of britain's got talent it would be as the comedy reject slot.

It just confirms for me that we wouldn't be watching this if it were women performing. They would just be a bit shit. Nothing to see here. But because it is men...then what? We give them a prize for being so brave to wear, well not even female clothing...just not much really...and posing themselves in exaggerated feminised sexual positions?

If the quality of the performance merited air time in its own right then I would begin to understand. But the ONLY reason this is being shown is because of the sex of the performers.

morphene i typed something out that was long and involved but lost it all. The crux of it said you're right, inside is different. You can't legislate away ideas that are woven into the fabric of society, culture and people's core beliefs.

And it would absolutely be horseshit if a straight woman performed a show of lesbian stereotypes, you're absolutely correct

I've seen a few series of Drag Race and I don't think they're celebrated for being brave or anything, beyond facing issues with their families who find it difficult to accept what they do as a job.

I'm ok with the fact that there's a group of men who wear female clothes and make-up and wigs because they enjoy it and say, "at the end of the day I'm still a man in a dress". It's the ones who think that because they get a kick out of that stuff it means they actually are women that grind my gears tbh.

fauch indeed not. I will remind myself of my privilege in deciding the grass is greener for groups I don't belong to!

One place I suppose it is obvious is the portrayal of gay characters on screen. Like women in lead roles I don't think we have moved past gender or sexuality being the defining characteristic....which is very sad.

I guess drag acts are just a part of that. It's only on screen because of the sex of the performers...and because of that it can't escape from being all about that one defining characteristic instead of being about anything else...like the quality of the performance.

It also occurs to me that if we are going solely on the quality of performance there all sorts of women we would never see. I suppose it isn't a good example because outright biology is a factor but we wouldn't see female sportswomen if we applied a strict ability threshold either.

I love the way they dress as women then are intimidating and aggressive towards men - it turns gender ideals on their heads and maybe gives them an insight to how women are made to feel. Obviously if you go to see a drag queen you know that's what you'll get. You tend to find that men that like a good drag act are not the type that see strippers etc.

One place I suppose it is obvious is the portrayal of gay characters on screen. Like women in lead roles I don't think we have moved past gender or sexuality being the defining characteristic....which is very sad.

Which is why Dumbledore was important. He's gay, it's not a plot point.

morphene no worries :) i used to think no one was racist against East Asians because I had never heard it (not many East Asians in my city growing up) until I became exposed to very shocking levels of racism towards them.

And well yes. In some ways it's great that there are gay people on tv, black and brown people on tv. But we really need to inspect those representations. What do they say? Take Glee, one of the biggest "diverse" casts most people can think of. Yet the two main characters were as conventional as any tv show and the tropes were the same: sassy black girl as prop, fashion obsessed gay guy as prop, disabled guy as prop, asian girl as prop, unintelligent blonde cheerleaders... what's new?

Someone said on another thread, you can't be what you can't see. The media like it or not shapes a lot about how we see ourselves and how we see others. The media shapes society and society shapes the media. The low level fabric says of black women: unloveable, sexually exotic/wild, mammyish, sidepart to white women as well as many other ideas which i won't go into. Growing up I hardly ever saw black women as love interests on tv or movies. The desirable girl was always white. Beauty was always white. So my friends would always make it clear I was not a viable love interest to anyone. It's been four years since I can say I have been physically able to see with my own eyes people can be attracted to me. I've been in a relationship for 2.5 years. And you know I still am so fucked up and traumatised with the idea that I am not loveable at all.

WRT drag: I don't know which link you watched really, was it a lipsync or what? The thing with it not being talent is by no means are they on the show for being the best singers, dancers, actors, make up artists in the world and it's not really about that at all. I go to drag shows quite often and have met many drag queens and count some of them amongst my friends. I have male and female drag queen friends (only one friend is a drag king). I don't go to see the best talents. If I wanted to see excellent performance I'd go to the west end. If i wanted to see excellent singing I'd go to a concert.

I go to see a performance that is kitschy, camp, underground, countercultural and fundamentally - gay (i am using gay interchangably with qu*er because i fucking hate that word). Thats not to say all LGB people love drag or identify it, but it's a part of our history and culture for sure and I am really interested in its evolution. I'm not interested in a man in a £2.99 wig making fanny jokes and doing bad karaoke in a resort in Benidorm, I'm really not and I wouldn't go to see that, although I recognise that is part of it. I'm also interested in the community that is created out of it - the thing is that London is closing gay venue after gay venue, other venues are becoming such that heteros now feel safe to come to a gay club and complain about there being gays. so we are coming together in various alternative spaces, hosting events, and in a city as big as london it's a real community where you can dress as you please, be who you please and watch a kitschy, campy, arty, gay performance born out of a culture you understand but that others really might not. And once again, I reiterate, there is misogyny in drag because many drag queens are men and many men are fucking shitty misogynists. But there is also a pushback from men who do not accept misogyny and women who are also in the scene.

For the life of me I can't remember the name of the website but a Birmingham drag queen wrote a lot of really good stuff on this topic. Lemme see if I can pull it up.

I don't oppose children painting their faces black when dressing up as the Three Wise Men during Christmas season, which is a local tradition. (One of the three is traditionally black)

And I don't oppose a man playing the Juliet in a small theatre performance of Romeo and Juliet.

It's the demeaning and insulting parodies of women, or ethnic minorities, that I oppose.

Author Jim Hines posing in typical "female protagonist" book cover poses is hilarious (google it) as it parodies the misogyny of said book covers. (Turns out it is not actually anatomically possible to stand in a way that shows your boobs AND butt at the same time.)

Men trying to walk in highheels and hilariously failing can be fun if it is intended and understood as parody of the impractical garments forced on women.

But men dressing up as women and then acting like assholes? Plain misogyny and not funny at all.

Last year we were in london, and went to see The Importance of being Earnest. With David Suchet playing Lady Bracknell. And afterwards people were saying, oh, wasn't he marvellous. Well, no, TBH. I enjoyed the play overall, but despite rather than because of this odd piece of casting. He's usually a very good actor, but he was playing a parody of a woman. There aren't so very many iconic comedic roles for older women, so WTF was a good male actor wasting his talents when a good female actor could have done it better?

They're taking the piss out of some of what I see as the symbols of our oppression.

I can't work out if that's cruel, just tactless, or could actually help liberate women

They totally did that with Suchet to get crowds in to see him - thats not drag and yes more roles are needed for women! Almost felt like they were going with the actor to steal some safe taboo from drag (maybe it's tradition in that role).

I think it's good to see some of the drag in London - it's very subversive to what people think women and men should be. So yes it can feel like an attack - but they're not going for women or trying to be us, they're going for what society happens to think a woman should be. For example - last time I went, all these queens hanging round a bar and chatting I suppose like blokes. A stag do saw them from the street and started shouting at them like they were females and being really crass, making obscene gestures - so the queens upped the ante. They turned to face the men, shouted back incredibly wild stuff, and acting all "lady like" with their poses - really OTT - saying to the men "this is what you want right?". And it shut the men up - the men weren't being cute, they were being disrespectful.

And the queens there were dressed like women, because they like the look of the things we get to wear. They liked girly things, and they wanted to wear them. None in that group wanted to be a girl, or act like a girl, or get the treatment (good and bad) we get. And they hate misogyny just like us - that's why they're ridiculed for wearing dresses, that's why they shouted back at the men.

Really interested in Fauch (no pressure Fauch!) because of the idea of it being the queens' separate culture. I'm also straight so don't come at it from a gay perspective.

I've been friends with queens too. Incidentally, two people I know who do drag were the most supportive people when I went through a trauma (sexual assault) exactly because they get so ostracised. They know what it is to be not good enough as a man and to be told not to dress as a woman - no one wants them. They didn't send up women, or even do any skits or comedy work - both just do lip syncs in town. The irony of my going to their gigs in trousers and looking androgynous! But that doesn't offend, if I look mannish, only if they wear dresses.

Now bad drag - the Jim Davidson of drag - hell yes it's rubbish! No one likes that, that's why they're always on some random circuit and no one goes to their gigs. It's awkward drag.

The thing with performance is - the two queens I knew (know still), they pride themselves on not doing the very best performances, but the most avant garde, arty stuff. They like coming up with a concept for a look and coming through with a character to go with it - it's very aesthetic led drag

We'll differ on tastes too - when you said one of those videos wasnt nice, I was shocked :) I really do love a good dance by a queen - same as if a women did it (I suppose a pop version of burlesque?). I just like the camp factor, from men or women

If any queen did a gig even mentioning women being lesser in any way, I'd walk out and complain. I'd heckle! But I haven't seen it from 98% of the queens, most don't even do any spoken word sets. Them dressing as women isn't inherently wrong to me, it isn't sending us up - they just want to chance to wear what they want, it's just society told us that's a women's thing.

There aren't so very many iconic comedic roles for older women, so WTF was a good male actor wasting his talents when a good female actor could have done it better?

Yes, that's why I said I was okay with it only in small theatre performances. When it is really not possible to find a good actor who's the right sex, race, etc. for the role. (Though I have only ever seen the opposite; school theatre plays often had an all female cast because boys weren't interested in acting)
As soon as there's serious money involved, giving roles to white men that aren't even intended for white men means further disadvantaging people who have it hard enough to make a living.

I can't work out if that's cruel, just tactless, or could actually help liberate women

It depends on the intention and the audience, I'd say.
A "Look, this looks ridiculous when a man does it. Does it not look equally ridiculous when a woman does it? Why are women expected to do ridiculous things in our culture?" message is much different from "Haha, women are such mean bitches, amirite?" one.

This touches on how drag isn't as superficial as it looks, it's a community of people who have more often than not been shunned (I mean directly, not online) as the only way they like to appear, most people don't like

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/feb/24/rupaul-drag-race-lgbt-impact-pop-culture-tv

(Rupauls show being only a tiny part of international drag though)

In Paris is Burning - the documentary I linked to - none of the queens had been accepted by their families. Including the two children who appear in the opening scenes. All were adopted into "drag families" - in a practical sense, otherwise they'd be homeless. It's a long standing community and most have pretty awful backstories

This isn't a plea to be nice to them - it's a reason why their identity is so strong and unapologetic. You've already rejected them, so what else do they have to lose

vestal I think you've hit the nail on the head - it's intention that's defining. I don't know any drag where they say women are ridiculous, so these discussions seem so alien to me. But that's a really nice way of distinguishing it

Notmy

This The thing with performance is - the two queens I knew (know still), they pride themselves on not doing the very best performances, but the most avant garde, arty stuff. They like coming up with a concept for a look and coming through with a character to go with it - it's very aesthetic led drag

Where are you based? Maybe I know who you mean! I'm sure our paths will have crossed if you go to shows a lot!

As for it being the queens culture - see this is the thing. I've been to dozens of drag shows. Looking out onto the crowd you will invariably find many women who are straight. In fact, I'm bisexual and in a hetero relationship, but my partner (hetero but possibly bi) watches drag race and is very involved. He loves Alaska, Trinity K Bonet, Laganja and Gia Gunn. Willam is a bit much for him. But my point is the crowd, as you well know, does not just attract the gay community.

And I think there are many reasons for this. I think it's a subversive extension of mainstream pop culture. If you queue at 5am the day before an Ariana Grande concert, or a Lady Gaga, Katy Perry, Beyonce any of the big names in female fronted pop, then go to a drag show in the same city, you will see at least two of the same people at both. After the manchester bombing, the gay community and the drag community came together. Mainstream pop culture buys heavily from drag, you could argue it even appropriates without credit. And mainstream female fronted pop will draw in superfans that are straight, who then get into drag race through LGB friends. And it's attractive because it is not only a subversive extension but the community is similar. Art, fashion, music, dance, but with added gay, more explicit gayness. Mainstream ff pop is already pretty gay but drag makes it explicit i guess

Does this mean you are takin Priscilla Queen of the Desert away from me? It's my favourite show and I thought quite empowering.

Small touring theatre companies are a different matter entirely - if they're doing Pinafore with less than a dozen people then, yes, half of the sisters and their cousins and their aunts will be blokes with a bonnet and dress chucked on over their sailors costume. Thats all very jolly. And all male or all female Shakespeare ensembles are usually fine too.

it's intention that's defining. But it's not. A basic rule is that it's not the privileged class that decides whether something is oppressive, its the 'other'. There's a lot of very well-intentioned racism, sexism and homophobia.

I love Priscilla! If every little boy and girl got the chance to dance to ABBA on a coach with Guy Pearce, the world would be a much better place

We're keeping Priscilla.

But it's not. A basic rule is that it's not the privileged class that decides whether something is oppressive, its the 'other'.

True. I mean more "intent as perceived by the oppressed class".

Because any bloke can claim his female impersonation is meant to be affectionate, or some shit.

The intent of those doing it matters insofar as if I think "Oh, those men trying to run in high heels clearly mean to show that high heels are impractical and never ever should women be forced to wear them for a job", but unbeknownst to me, the men just want to parody women, then clearly, that doesn't make it a woman-friendly thing, does it?

Fifty Shades of Grey, if intended as such, could be a book on why women get into and stay in abusive relationships, but the fact that the author didn't mean it that way, and doesn't market it that way, means it isn't.

Sometimes, you can't tell if something is someone genuinely being horrible, or parodying something horrible, and that's where intent matters.

And there's so much more to it than just sticking on some slap and a dress. There's many aspects, many approaches.
To touch back on Violet Chachki, who has already been mentioned, she's an aerial performer and as mentioned, burlesque style too. She's performed on tour with Dita Von Teese - so there's a very prominent female figure embracing burlesque drag.

The talent is amazing. The makeup skills, the outfits and the performance. Some are funny, some are beautiful. And I can't really see why it's harming anyone.