Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Grenfell tower exposes stark inequalities in our society.

270 replies

thinkiamgoingcrazy · 22/06/2017 05:47

In the new luxury block some of the Grenfell residents have been rehoused in, 3 flats put together are "worth" an eye watering 5 million pounds. The same amount of money as the government has pledged for the Grenfell victims.

What is the matter with our society that such vast inequalities are able to exist? When did London become an investment bank for the rich rather than somewhere for its citizens to live with dignity Angry?

[Why are there some "private" squares in London where the benches have plaques on them reading that they are only for the patrons of the nearby hotel Angry?]

Why are we such an unequal society in general with a massive gap in earnings, and a tiny precentage of our population owning such a huge amount of our wealth?

I don't think that this is a dignified or progressive way to live. Nothing against capitalism, but ffs it can't be allowed to do its rampant worst. IMO.

OP posts:
fatdogs · 23/06/2017 00:41

This has really made me laugh. People should be housed by the council so that they are 5 minutes walk from a church or mosque on taxpayer money. And meanwhile taxpayer has to live in a place where they have a 90 minute commute to work and pay ridiculous train fare annually. And you wonder why people resent refugees or benefit claimants ?

Leanback · 23/06/2017 00:46

The irony of your comments is they usually want to live in the poorest areas. At least in the city I work in they do (news flash: it isn't London)

Leanback · 23/06/2017 00:50

And no people of all backgrounds should be housed in areas which allow them to maintain their work/education, maintain social relationships and maintain their identity. Nobody should be forced to live in the middle of nowhere, where they know nobody, and have no cultural connections. Just because you are poor doesn't mean you shouldn't get some modicum of choice.

fatdogs · 23/06/2017 01:01

@leanback if they want to live in the poorest areas then that is not an issue is it? Although I do still support the spreading out of immigrants to ensure that ethnic enclaves do not flourish. They should have choice yes. But not when those choices require a disproportionate spend on the part of the state. And if those choices mean that integration becomes more difficult. This post was about inequities in society and referred to the Grenfell towers tragedy. I don't actually think a lot of the residents in Grenfell towers suffered from huge inequity. A number of them were long term tenants or owners and working. Certainly the Italian couple were both professionals and paying a fairly high rent. The residents were living in central London and the real issue is the poor infrastructure and heads should roll for that. A number of posters on other threads have insinuated that simply by living in a tower block the residents and their children were suffering from inequity and a decreased standard in living. Coming from a country where 85% of the population live in tower blocks I find that quite insulting. That a child is deprived simply becuase they do not have a garden of their own. Would most children who grew up in Tokyo, Singapore, Hong Kong etc be classed as deprived then?

ExtraPineappleExtraHam · 23/06/2017 01:10

The problem with all of this 'work hard and you'll go far' bollocks is that it assumes that life is fair when it isn't. I've worked at places where anyone who applied with a foreign sounding surname had their CV subtly 'lost' because 'their English might not be good enough' or 'they might not have anything in common with us.' I was too young and foolish to complain at the time but now I look back and wonder how many other companies have similar recruitment criteria.
Also as a mother I know that I've been discriminated against in the workplace and so have 2/3 of mums I know. Whether that's being told that you need to be more flexible when you're going for a promotion or just flat out sacked the week after announcing a pregnancy, it still goes on so how am I expected to work my way out of poverty?
Also buying your own home is great but saving up £30,000 for a deposit? Not easy when you're privately renting. I feel like all those 'dope smoking, messy' council remnants might have grasped the lunacy of this 'work hard and you'll be rewarded' mantra a lot quicker than I have and maybe that's why they dgaf about their houses anymore!

LostSight · 23/06/2017 01:59

Purits said on page 4: There needs to be a safety net but there also needs to be a sense of personal responsibility.
When I was young there was shame in being on benefits. Now it's "I know my rights!
We need rights and responsibilities.

This point seems to have been partly overlooked, but those who mentioned Scandinavia might be interested to know that when I moved to Scandinavia, I attended a course to learn the language. It was compulsory to also have some lessons about the lifestyle and there was a strong message about the above.

With every right, we were told, there comes a responsibility. So your children have a right to a free education, but the parents have the responsibility to ensure their children attend. There is a right to medical healthcare, but a responsibility to not abuse the system.

I believe this balance used to be more accepted in the UK. It seemed to me that it began to be undermined in the Thatcher era. Greed became acceptable, where before it was, at least in public, frowned upon.

There will always be some who behave antisocially. But when they are treated with decency, it is less likely to become entrenched behaviour. There are people in society who struggle. You can tell them they are worthless or you can demonstrate decency and try to help them. People here who end up in prison are educated and supported. Once they are out, they continue to be supported. It costs a lot, but they are far less likely to fall back into the destructive cycles that put them there in the first place.

In the long term, the whole of society benefits because there is less crime. This has been shown to be the same in any place where there is greater equality. Some of the most violent places on earth are the places where inequality is greatest.

Similarly providing good health care means there is less illness throughout. The poor man who can't get treatment for his TB can blight many other lives than his own.

And for those who sit with their hand held out? What role models do they see? Super rich celebrities who avoid paying tax because they can afford someone to tell them how. Rich politicians who obviously didn't arrive in Downing Street on merit, but through their old school network and parents who could afford to help them.

Do you see why those people might feel angry? And of course, they have learned the language of rights, without the backdrop of responsibility. Those at the top have the same language, but they are still lauded and understood. "Well if you had all that, wouldn't you want to do the same? They worked hard for that." Well they may have done, but they could not have done so without the support of the society they live in.

I'm all for Scandinavian type egalitarianism. It was more like that in the UK in the post war years I believe. Ironically, it has been shown that where there is huge inequality, everyone is less happy, even the rich. Society is more stable when everyone at least has enough to live with a reasonable level of comfort.

The jealousy argument is old, by the way. We have a six figure income and are happy to pay tax because we appreciate knowing that we live in a country where nobody has to live in poverty. Yes there may be some undeserving in that number, but I would rather that than that any child or person who was genuinely unable to help themselves fell through the net.

makeourfuture · 23/06/2017 05:08

To ensure that ethnic enclaves do not flourish.

Aren't English immigrants (I think they prefer "expat") famous for their "enclaves"? In Singapore, for instance, they set up their own administrative district.

thinkiamgoingcrazy · 23/06/2017 05:16

Although I do still support the spreading out of immigrants to ensure that ethnic enclaves do not flourish.

Enclaves happen naturally, and as people gain their own means and settle/flourish, they will automatically, under their own steam, move to areas where they feel at home. So in London, for example, Southgate is Greek/Cypriot/Turkish, parts of Wembley are Indian, Brixton is West Indian, Golders Green and Stamford Hill are Jewish, South Kensington is French amongst other things, where I live is quite Muslim, with over 50 percent of the children at my dcs' primary school being Muslim, Soho is Chinese etc (of course there are other nationalities as well as English people, but that is the general trend)......

OP posts:
thinkiamgoingcrazy · 23/06/2017 05:17

(And yes I know that Judaism and Islam are not nationalities).

OP posts:
thinkiamgoingcrazy · 23/06/2017 05:22

So, if capitalism is so terrible and doesn't work, then show me a country where communism works, and the people are happy and equal.

My post was not about wanting or supporting communism. It was about market forces not being able to run rampant. Places like Sweden and Germany being examples of more egalitarian but still capitalist societies.

OP posts:
OvariesForgotHerPassword · 23/06/2017 05:48

The "work hard and you'll go far", "anyone can be the next Alan Sugar if you just try" thing doesn't wash with me.

I intend to spend the rest of my working life in the emergency services. I won't have an Alan Sugar moment. I will spend the next 50/60 (who knows what retirement age will be by then!) years in a job I love and a job that helps people. The same is true for the other emergency services, the rest of the NHS - not just healthcare staff but all the auxiliary staff too; all the cleaners and porters and administrators.

I daresay this country needs its NHS workers etc more than it needs a bevy of Alan Sugars, but the latter is what we're supposed to aspire to. "Yes you're poor and struggling, but that's the choice you've made. You could have been Alan Sugar if you'd really applied yourself, nurse. It isn't society's fault that you've chosen to spend your life saving the lives of others and caring for everyone at their weakest".

makeourfuture · 23/06/2017 05:59

I daresay this country needs its NHS workers etc more than it needs a bevy of Alan Sugars

Damn straight! Yes!

Out2pasture · 23/06/2017 06:04

overies I know many nurses who invest in penny stocks (actually a group of nurses started their own) many who start their own pension funds on top of the government plan and many who flip houses and retire having done very well. most of the local firemen do drywall and carpentry trades along with their vocation again retiring very well (two firemen live on my street both have home businesses on top of their primary job and live very very well).
you may yet have your alan sugar moment

Squeegle · 23/06/2017 06:35

lost sight thank you for articulating exactly my thoughts. A fairer society for all with the recognition that we all have responsibilities and role models who act with integrity. That is exactly what we have been moving away from and need to get closer to again.

StealthPolarBear · 23/06/2017 06:56

Excellent post ovaries.
And the pp who made the point about how being poor is expensive - this sounds counter intuitive but is a really important point. Needs to be understood more widely.

StiginaGrump · 23/06/2017 07:36

Nurses I know can barely often not at all fund their own houses so could never fund flipping. Though I do know a fireman who is also a window cleaner - a comment on his income rather than his Alan sugar aspirations I have always presumed.

Goodluckjonathan76 · 23/06/2017 10:10

Entirely agree with Fatdogs. Not sure why so many people think they have the right to live in some of the wealthiest parts of London. I work full time and am on a salary that would make me one of "the rich" according to Jeremy Corbyn, but there is no way I can afford to live in Kensington or Westminster. Why should those in social housing get to live in central London if ordinary working people can't afford to? Obviously key worker housing is a bit different although I have a friend who is a nurse who has a lovely 2 bed flat at a low "key-worker" rent and another dr friend who lives in 2 bed flat an hour commute away.

MiddleEnglandLives · 23/06/2017 11:31

At least, at long last, these issues are actually being discussed. These problems have been long in the building and now in effect Brits live in two different countries, that of the 'anyone can succeed if only they try haaaarrrd' camp, and that of Grenfell tower, whose inhabitants know damn well that you have to try harder and harder every single day, pick yourself up again and again, only to watch everything you've worked for be destroyed again and again, while those of the fortunate first camp sail past them. Of course there are those who have made it from nothing - for goodness sake they are so rare that in a country of nearly 70 million people you can name names! But for the vast majority of us, life is a slow plod with rather too many sinkholes along the way, and nowadays gateposts move and change far too fast.

Goodluckjonathan76 · 23/06/2017 11:43

What this thread seem to ignore are the people in the middle who are doing ok but no way near "rich" as defined by Jeremy Corybyn. Is it right to penalise those who earn 80k with higher tax? Aren't those people paying enough already? If it was just a tax on the super rich who can easily afford an extra 5/10/15k a year then fine, but it's not. It's penalising those who have worked hard and got on in life. And yes, sorry, some jobs are both skilled and in demand than others and some do deserve a higher salary.

fatdogs · 23/06/2017 11:48

@makeourfuture the English are famous for setting up enclaves and not integrating when they immigrate. Not setting that is right but that is an issue for the country in which they live to address. I am not aware of any area in Singapore where the English or British have a special administrative region. Certainly not after independence anyway. They may choose to live in certain regional clusters but they are subject to the same laws as any other resident. And to the pp who said that enclaves will form organically. They probably will and there is nothing we can do about that if immigrants exercise choice and pay for their choices by buying or privately renting homes in certain areas. But damned if the state should be required to pay for it to allow them to form enclaves and not integrate and even more so when those chosen enclaves are I primes real estate areas.

fatdogs · 23/06/2017 11:56

I am a higher rate tax payer and by Labour definition that means I am rich and can be taxed more. I pay a bomb privately renting a shoebox, i commute 90 minutes to work everyday and pay £17 train fare for that privilege waking up at 5am to get to work in time. There's not much disposable income left at the end of the month. So forgive me if I don't have much sympathy for a refugee who wants to live 5 minutes walk from a church or mosque. Church or mosque indeed. Their first thought should be or working and getting self sufficient, not prancing around in worship. I might have some sympathy if they wanted to live 5 minutes away from school. But that is never the case is it? It's always, always about wanting to buy religious approved foods and circling around the mosque.

Goodluckjonathan76 · 23/06/2017 12:04

So on the same page as you FatDogs. I paid nearly 50k last year. After paying a massive mortgage and crippling childcare costs, I have very little left at the end of the month. But apparently I am super-rich and should pay thousands more in tax each year.

Goodluckjonathan76 · 23/06/2017 12:07

Sorry, meant to say I paid nearly 50k in tax last year. Silly me for working hard, spending time away for my kids and getting on in life! The tax bracket I am currently in means I pay 50% tax as I lose my personal allowance. A lot of friends are in the same boat. We have reasonable lifestyles (2 holidays a year and own our own houses) but we are far from rolling in it.

TipTopTipTopClop · 23/06/2017 12:12

The English expats v inbound UK refugees are hardly the same case, whatever the former's appetite for integration (I'm sure it's not huge). People from the UK are going to other countries on their own dime, or perhaps their employer's. They do not have refugee status.

So if they settle in a dense pattern, as fatdogs says - it's really a matter for the host country to deal with.

If integration is the goal, and I think there's broad agreement that it is, then there's not much point in creating satellite countries in the UK. Neither do I have much sympathy for proximity to mosques - it's our responsibility to ensure freedom of religion. That's it.

BoysofMelody · 23/06/2017 12:22

But damned if the state should be required to pay for it to allow them to form enclaves and not integrate and even more so when those chosen enclaves are I primes real estate areas

This is so much bollocks. Enclaves of the type you describe were created largely due to the phenomenon of postwar 'white flight' with the white working classes abandoning areas of large cities that migrants had moved into and sent up their own enclaves in the inner city suburbs, often on newly built postwar council estates. Migrants .over into areas no one else wanted to live. A problem compounded in some places, by nakedly racist council housing allocation in which the plum accomodation in new build council housing was reserved for whites. A legacy you can see on certain housing estates in both Leeds and Liverpool today.

But damned if the state should be required to pay for it to allow them to form enclaves and not integrate and even more so when those chosen enclaves are I primes real estate areas.

Yes, what an extraordinary privilege the residents of Grenfell Tower had, living in a a substandard death trap where refurbishment ignored the installation of fire safety systems, in favour of adding cladding so rich people in the borough didn't have their view blighted,so what if it wasn't fire retardant, doesn't matter they're only poor. I mean ideally the whole block should have been knocked down and luxury flats built on the site, so an overseas investor could snap them up and leave them empty.