Men can breastfeed

[shinynewusername]

La Leche League - the US equivalent of the NCT - now claims that men can breastfeed. NB, they are not just talking about transmen (born women), but actual men. WTF?

(Mens' nipples do occasionally produce some fluid, often as a result of disease but to say this is breast-feeding is deranged and insulting to mothers)

Over the weekend, I have also seen transwomen on social media claim that women seeking abortion should feel privileged to have an unwanted pregnancy and a 16 year old student at an American school in Spain reporting how she was not allowed to mention FGM or use the word 'woman' in a class on feminism because it 'triggered' a non-binary male in the class.

AIBU to think this is fucking out of hand? Every aspect of women's identify is being colonised and erased.

There are loads of people places where segregation works well.

Not sure what that means zzzzz. Can you expand?

There is no point trying to convince Neo, but for any other readers who might be sceptical about how common rape is:

Rape statistics are of course always an estimation as it is believed that up to 97% are not reported to the police. The 2006–07 Crime Survey for England and Wales found that 1:200 women reported (to the survey) being raped in the preceding year. If that 1: 200 annual risk is repeated over a 75 year lifetime, that would get you to 75:200 women being raped or more than 1:3. But of course it's more complicated than that because the risk is probably not the same at all ages and some women are raped multiple times. On the other hand, rapes that occur in early childhood or to women with dementia/severe LD will have been excluded from the survey as the victims won't remember them.

1: 20 women reported having been raped since the age of 16 at the point that the survey was taken but of course that excluded all rape in childhood and it doesn't give you the lifetime risk either. If the 1:200 annual risk is correct, the 1:20 figure must be a significant underestimate of the lifetime risk (unless you believe that rape victims are typically raped once a year over 10 years).

So the true figure will be somewhere between 3:8 (75/200) and 1:20. If Neo has a source for a better estimate than 1:6, perhaps s/he would be kind enough to share it?

There isn't any proof that men can lactate in the sense of providing nourishment for a baby. Men suffering from various conditions have produced fluid from their nipples, but how similar to breastmilk this is, we don't know.

Breastmilk changes as the baby grows, so women produce colostrum (very concentrated and quite thick) for the first few days, and then it becomes more watery. The female body detects what the baby is coming into contact with through the nipple as the baby feeds, and then produces the corresponding antibodies, sharing her immune system with her child.

Breastfeeding is a complete food that can entirely sustain an infant. It involves physical effort, requires dedication and surviving on broken and reduced sleep, and in many cases, pain. It is hard work. It is protected under sex discrimination laws, meaning I cannot be asked to leave somewhere because I am breastfeeding. If the argument is 'well men can breastfeed too, so it's not sex discrimination' then I have no protection.

Today is very hot, so I have a bottle of water for my toddler. Before 6 months and for a while after she could not take enough liquid from a cup to go out in this heat. She refused to drink from a bottle. She breastfed to keep hydrated and if we could not do this in public we would not have the freedom to go out.

I'm completely with you op and well done for starting this thread. We must keep speaking up about these issues. Interesting that the posts that disagree with you focus on their wants and needs, what they think is acceptable. Not how this will affect women as a class. Or they just resort to telling you to shut up.

During the debate of the Canadian bill C 16, there was an ongoing case of a man identifying as a woman who wanted to be a counsellor in a rape crisis refuge. The refuge refused on the basis that the women had suffered horrendous sexual violence and did not want to be counselled by a man presenting as a woman.

I should imagine most people would be fully appreciative of that stance.

However, the case took 12 years, went through all the courts right up to the Supreme Court, and cost the refuge nearly a quarter of of a million dollars.

Nowhere, in that process, was anyone able to see that a man who was prepared to tie up a rape refuge for 12 years to the tune of a quarter of a million dollars was quite obviously not the kind of man who gave a toss about women.

How many, many people were prepared to let this carry on? Not putting an end to it. Not saying no. Wavering, deliberating, writing reports, having conferences. Debating whether or not a man with the motivation of a rat should be allowed to counsel female rape survivors?

And what was his motivation? Clearly not the women. Clearly not the refuge.

It was idiots like these who have just passed the bill C 16.

Women, no one cares. No one is asking you. Most women don't even know this is going on.

It is. It really, really is.

TitaniasCloset

Well precisely. Many women say they don't mind taking a leak with a man there, but would object to a cross dressing fetishist giving them a gynaecological exam.

Too bad. You can't cherry pick.

I will concede that there is a cohort of revolting, perverted men who use trans rights as a vehicle to abuse women. I would, however, point out that this is to the detriment of most trans people who just want to live their lives in peace.

To suggest that men can breastfeed is the same way as a woman can is firstly, incorrect and secondly, dangerous to woman because it moves towards the myth that womanhood is simply performance.

zzzzz

No. No one cares if men lactate. They only care if they are going to exploit it to gain political capital to erase sex based law.

How else do you suggest women counter these points? You have address the soundbite 'men can breast feed'. You have to counter it. You have to dismantle it. You have to point out how ridiculous it is.

What are you scared will happen if you accept that men's nipples can lactate or that we all use the same toilets?

I think very few actually care about toilets. Toilets are brought up to be dismissive of genuine concerns of women. Changing rooms, prisons, shelters.

As to men accepting men lactate (when discussing breastfeeding) why would I accept something that is so clearly not true?

Fl0ellafunbags

I don't disagree with that. There is a section of transwomen who just want to get on with it, under the radar. However, they are not the ones who are insisting on changing the law and accessing women's sex segregated spaces.

zzzzz

That's true, you could ask for a different practitioner. But if you ask for a woman, you may well get another man. Each time.

Are you suggesting that men - as a class- can breastfeed and sustain an infant with only that milk?

And zzzzz, you may eventually get a woman. But do you not see how one-sided this all is. You having to jump through hoops because a man with gender dysphoria is now a woman.

I'm not prepared to keep my objections opaque. To look embarrassed and uneasy and make a request, please. If that's ok. I don't want to offend.

God. We're going backwards.

I would, however, point out that this is to the detriment of most trans people who just want to live their lives in peace

I also agree with this.. However, even trans people who want to be left in peace need to recognise that the trans movement risks harming women. And some do of course - there are a number of trans women who say that they are not women in the same sense as biological women and should not use their facilities. Brave of them to do so as they get a world of abuse for their troubles.

But they don't.

For example. Squirrels do not water ski. Now you could of course use the internet to prove that there have been known documented cases of squirrels being caught in the act of skiing, but in order to do so you would have to completely disregard the fact that it is in no way a natural act for a squirrel. Skiing is still most definitely safely in the remit of 'things that people do' and that when discussing skiing and legislating the safety of skiing, bits, equipment etc that we need to consider really only human participants and not pander to the squirrel agenda.

zzzzz

No. Except that female could be a man! Legally. You would not be allowed to say can I see a natal born female doctor. Transphobic, discriminatory and illegal under discrimination law.

I was banned from MN. I assume for reminding them how they hate transpeople and would rather delete users than address it. Perhaps for daring to argue against the feminist agenda. Either way, he MN, I'm real and I'm now posting from "Japan".

This is the post I was going to make:

Datun

"What you need to appreciate is many people are completely saturated by the erosion of women's rights"

Why is that I need to understand your point that rather than you needing to understand that people like the OP need to understand that the perceived injustice and erosion of 'what it is to be a woman' etc are poor excused for feigned outrage?

"It's really not about being against people, for the sake of it."

That isn't how it seems to me.

Coming from a slightly different angle, why is it that feminism has become a toxic label and movement which is hemorrhaging those who wish to be part of it? Whilst 'sexist' used to be an insult, it now gets rolled eyes and 'feminist' is an insult.

"what is that you specifically disagree with?"

That anything mentioned is an issue. The things the OP mentioned which were issues (rights after a divorce, abortion, rape within marriage, voting, owning property) have been eliminated either by my generation or by those before me. Current feminists look for things like triggers, micro aggression and ever smaller and insignificant things to get het up about.

I appreciate your "I understand that you are pissed off" simply because you managed to avoid calling me a man . I have no idea how old you are (of course) but I do wonder if you actually understand why. For me, it's because me and women like me fought for equality; we don't want to be a protected class or complain everytime we feel someone else is getting special treatment. We want equality. It's what feminism used to stand for. We were on the attack when society was rigged against us in so many ways. Now we're defending it and it seems that many want to do this by putting others down.

We attacked men when they were a system. Now, men are attacked as a sex and it's everything I'm against.

I read threads about a man in a family changing room or a 16 year old American against the term "FGM" and it makes me wonder if any of these people understand what real problems are. When you fight for smaller and smaller issues, you begin to look petty. I don't think the OP's grasped this concept.

It may trigger people to read an opposing view. It may make the mods cross that not everyone conforms to their narrow and uneducated view of what people should think, but fuck it. It does people good to read outside of their echo-chamber of ideas.

Anyway, see you all with a new username soon. This doesn't mean I toll. It means that your views are carefully moderated.