Is it possible for atheists and theists to discuss their world views without one ooh t of view or the other feeling anything along a scale from dissatisfied to furious?

[BertrandRussell]

Theists get patronising, then defensive, atheists get exasperated, then angry. Is there another way? Or is it just completely impossible and not even worth trying?

My children are certainly the reason I get out of bed... as early as I do.

Cross post Jassy

No and yes.
You are obviously a stronger person that me. Yes I can believe you get out of bed for you children.
My point is for me that's often not enough. I sometimes need the reason that it's a God-given duty, otherwise the fact they are there may not be enough. (Especially if another adult is around)

You are obviously a stronger person that me.

You have nothing to base that on.

Yes I can believe you get out of bed for you children.
My point is for me that's often not enough. I sometimes need the reason that it's a God-given duty, otherwise the fact they are there may not be enough. (Especially if another adult is around)

I have no way of saying this that may not sound quite offensive - that sounds so utterly dark and futile and sad to me. The idea that one's children aren't enough, in and of themselves, without a deity to make the job worthwhile.

Takes a lot to offend me.

I really struggled to imagine life without God
It seems like life would be dark and futile and sad.

*struggle

Rest assured there is no god-shaped hole. There is enduring and overwhelming joy in the everyday things of this world.

It seems we're both happy, in our own ways.

What I want to pass on to my children is how to think critically and logically, and be incredible sceptical about what they read. I'd much prefer my child be a theist or religious and be able to defend her views rationally, than be an atheist that blindly accepts what people say.

I love this chilipepper20

Is it-forgive me, but what you are describing sounds like depression........

Yes Bertrand as wrote it i realised that it might come across that way, hence the comment earlier about having a great life.

I'm not depressed.
I'm loving life

(I have occasionally been depressed, though never diagnosed, so I know I'm not at the moment. iyswim)

Often, because I know I am a loved child of God

I find that as incomprehensible as you clearly find the idea of there being no god.

However if god exists why does he or she apparently have favourites ?

Although I have to say I find the idea that there has to be a deity around to give any meaning to life , or even to get one out of bed in the morning, a pretty grim and depressing thought.

However if god exists why does he or she apparently have favourites ?

this has always mystified me. Why does he love some more than others?

However if god exists why does he or she apparently have favourites ?
Why does he love some more than others?

Does he?

New to the thread but i think it must be quite hard work to be an atheist, I don't mean to offend but Imo having no belief of God goes against so many things that tell us there IS a God. To me, everything in life points to a Creator. I would find it very hard to accept that evolution has given us all such deep emotion, such deep love, our compassion, our constant striving to better ourselves and succeed, and our need to be liked and loved.

Evolution would have had no need to give us so much. It all points to a Divine Being. I'm not trying to convert anyone or belittle anyone who doesn't believe, everyone has the right to their own beliefs, i'm just saying how I feel. Without God I'd feel lost, alone and aimless.

However if god exists why does he or she apparently have favourites ?
Why does he love some more than others?

Does he?

You believe you are a loved child of god.

If a god exists why does he or she only manifest him or herself to some but not all? I've asked Christians this and got explanations along the lines that I am not open to god, I'm not allowing god into my heart.

This assumes that I'm making an effort not to but I'm not; if god exists he or she seems rather selective , even capricious, about whom he or she communicates with.

Evolution would have had no need to give us so much.

everything you mentioned have clear evolutionary explanations. Deep love for children being an obvious example. You see this in many animals especially ones that only have a small number of offspring. I am from the US, and we learn approaching a baby bear is a big no no.

Does he?

some children are the descendents of people who have had special toilets made for them when visiting parts of the country. On the other hand, some people have never seen a modern toilet and suffer the consequences of having inadequate sewage systems.

seems like he is picking favourites.

But golden, those things to me point in a completely different direction, and the wonder and joy that comes from observing a world of such complexity and intricacy, replete with both magnificent symbiosis and interplay alongside bizarre pointlessness and outliers is so amazing. To be such an insignificant atom in the scale of the universe, but the epicentre of your own existence. The knowledge that one tiny variation in the development of the planet and none of us would be here. It's mind blowing, and brilliant.

I tried for a very long time to fit that into some kind of creator/design paradigm and it simply didn't stack up. Just about everything indicates that a creator wasn't involved and that we are lucky, unique little blips on the unknowable timeline of the universe.

It is so much more amazing to appreciate the universe for what it is, on its own merits and with all its amazing contradictions and all the tiny changes to make it what it is, than to declare it impossible and the invention of a god. That's my experience. My life is so much richer without faith or religion.

Are you saying you don't think evolution is a thing?

My reference to "favourites" wasn't in relation to the disparity in material welfare (although that is a relevant point) but spiritual welfare.

IsIt believes her life is significantly enhanced by god's love- to the point she is querying how those of us who are atheists can cope even to get up in the morning.

Now setting aside our replies of "just fine" it seems terribly capricious of god to disperse his or her affections in such an arbitrary way.

Excellent post Jassy that sums up my views exactly.

The debate between isit and others illustrates its own pointlessness.
She is a faithful Catholic and is required to think as she does. As I said in a previous post, faith demands that you believe or be dammed.
isit is clearly an intelligent, thoughtful and good person, from her posts. But I would very much dispute her claim that her faith creates a safe space, especially for her children. On the contrary, it is most precarious, because if that faith is lost, for whatever reason, all is lost.

I lost my faith and suffered long lasting consequences. (My cousin, to whom I am close, retained hers and is comfortable in it, so I see the other side - but we never discuss religion, as we will never understand each other's point of view.)

Discussion is one thing; conversion is another.

World views can be discussed in order to be examined and understood as long as difference is respected. When ridicule, contempt, incredulity, scorn or arrogance come into play it's another matter.

having no belief of God goes against so many things that tell us there IS a God - see, that's the thing I struggle with. Because I have not seen any evidence that there is one.

Jassy a lovely post, sums up exactly how I feel.
Not a day passes when I am not blown away by the beauty and splendour of the world we live in, the complexity of an opening flower, the colours of the sky.
I am deeply moved by the majesty and splendour of our universe and the wonder of life.

Accrediting that to a manufacturer would debase it.

“Pay No Attention to that Man Behind the Curtain!”

The idea that there is some old guy behind it all pulling the levers is quite sad. Makes our universe seem like a sham, like a film set, wobbly walls included.

I celebrate my Universe because it is authentic, and full of wonder.

And happy solstice to everyone.

I apologize for posting this again no I don't
"Our story is the story of the Universe. Every piece of everyone and everything you love, of everything you hate, of everything you hold precious was assembled in the first few minutes of the life of the Universe, and transformed in the hearts of stars, or created in their fiery deaths. When you die, those pieces will be returned to the Universe in the endless cycle of death and rebirth. What a wonderful thing to be part of that Universe. And what a story. What a majestic story!"

I love that Bertrand and what you say Jassy and Westray about the wonder you see in the universe. It is indeed splendid and incredible and I feel the same. As a Christian, though, I see that wonder in a slightly different way. I don't see the idea of God being behind it all as debasing it but rather enhancing it; I don't admire a beautiful piece of art and then feel short changed when I find there is an artist - rather, I celebrate the artist too and appreciate their creativity and imagination. It's a bit like that for me. I see God as infinitely creative, setting the processes of the big bang and evolution, creating and shaping with love and passion and delight and setting freedom into that creation as well.

My view of it certainly doesn't trump your experience of wonder at all and I'm glad you do experience that in such a profound way it is awesome isn't it.