Is it possible for atheists and theists to discuss their world views without one ooh t of view or the other feeling anything along a scale from dissatisfied to furious?

[BertrandRussell]

Theists get patronising, then defensive, atheists get exasperated, then angry. Is there another way? Or is it just completely impossible and not even worth trying?

Well unless you went to an atgestist school I think most of us have been taught the co cepts of religion. No so never thought there was an afterlife. I think. But I was 7 ffs. You sound as if you were a lot lot older

And this is why some people have issues with atheists. It isn't a competition about not finding faith!

"I wonder if theists understand how absolutely horrifying death is to an athethist child. To develop an understanding that there is no afterlife takes a lot if thinking and for me contemplation."

Something else I don't understand. My children have never been taught that there was an afterlife. My mother, who was very elderly when my children were born, talked a lot about the the cycle of life, and nature and birth and death....They accepted her death as part of that cycle, and that is how they thing about their own,

It's not believing there is an afterlife. It's accepting death is all there is. My parents did not indoctrinate me either way and allowed me to come to my own decisions

Perhaps your children where never allowed to reach the cognitive thought by themselves as they were taught as much as theists teach their children. It does not make you or them better or worse atheists

It means I found my own way. Through my own thought processes.

Bertrand

I don't understand why you wouldn't want your children exposed to other religions. To understand that not everyone believes the same as them. Frankly, I'm not sure how you would manage it, once they are older than about 4!

As I said above, my kids are (Obviously) exposed to all kinds of people, neighbours, out of school activities, they are youtube and TV watchers. We don't live in the south East, so our catholic school has about 40% catholic pupils.
But I think where we started was that I was complaining that I had chosen a Catholic school for a Catholic education and yet they weren't getting that, they were being taught different philosophies.

Now I believe in my faith. I know it to be truth.
(It's not, people will say, it's one belief amongst many, it's not proven, it's an horrific idea etc)
To me I know it is true. (Others think differently, I know that)
Why would I teach my child something that I don't think is true, is true?
Why would you teach yours? Or anyone teach theirs?

Yes, my kids know other people think it's not true, they know other religions exist.

I suppose I want them to have a safe space. Where they can learn about life and faith and belief whilst they are young.
As they grow they will encounter more and more different ideas, and they will be older, old enough to understand the subtleties, they'll have a good knowledge of what catholicism teaches, so they can choose to go against what I have taught them, but they'll know that they are choosing it, and be secure enough in themselves to make conscious choices.
(As opposed to having a whole raft of competing ideas flying around, and no peg to hang them on. No measure to measure them against.)

Is your family not that safe space?

And it does not mean I did NOT accept death. But I read the bible by myself at 7 after talking to my friend. We had one in the house. So no. No one taught me. I read it. And concluded at 7 years old I didn't believe in it.

I can't believe I'm having to justify my 7 year old self!

It does not make you or them better or worse atheists

I don't think anyone meant to imply anything like that - simply exploring differences. As has been discussed, atheism isn't like a religion with a right or wrong way to do it!

Fallen
Yes, my family is A safe space.
No, it is not big enough to be ALL of the safe space.

Why would I teach my child something that I don't think is true, is true?

I am an atheist and I don't want my child to take what I say on faith. I don't know there is no god, I am just pretty sure that his/her existence (at least as many religions teach) is improbable.

But for me that isn't that important. What I want to pass on to my children is how to think critically and logically, and be incredible sceptical about what they read. I'd much prefer my child be a theist or religious and be able to defend her views rationally, than be an atheist that blindly accepts what people say.

Family and church then. Many others with a religious faith manage out of necessity.

I don't understand what a "safe space" is in this context. Why do children need to be protected from information?

Betrand

I also don't understand why you don't want your doctor to evenmentioncontraception to you. Don't you just say "No, thank you"

'Do you need contraception?'
'No thank you, I want to talk about the ear problem I just told you about'

I suppose that would be fine.
(I'd still find it a bit weird)

But it's more like this

'Do you need contraception?'
'No thank you, I want to talk about the ear problem I just told you about'
'But I can't see any record of contraception on your notes'
'Yes I'm fine thankyou, my ear?'
'But you've got 4 children from 5 pregnancies'
'Yes, all planned. My ear?'
'You don't want to risk another pregnancy at your age, let me get you some contraception'
'I'm not planning any more kids, I don't believe in artificial contraception, it's against my religion, and I'm using natural family planning methods. My ear?'
'Are you sure?'
'FFS, my ear?'

"I suppose I want them to have a safe space. Where they can learn about life and faith and belief whilst they are young."

Me too. That's what families should be,

I've never had that experience at the doctor's- I think you must have been very unlucky.

I think if you have a religious faith it is a good thing to have at least some people you can talk to about it (without them starting by asking if you think their children are going to hell). People for whom you do not have to explain everything before you even start. But that is surely a church thing for Catholics, as it is not a faith practised alone? I don't know if that' what isitthe holidays yet means though. As schools would not come under that heading for me.

I have never been asked about contraception. I do only have 2 children though. bad catholic

Most of us have no problem with not having existed before our births, the universe managed just fine without me. Same deal when I'm dead

I don't have any problem with a cycle of birth, life and death.

I don't believe in artificial contraception, it's against my religion, and I'm using natural family planning methods

I've never followed this argument.

I really think only having sex when you know you are very unlikely to conceive (and taking temperatures/ examining cervical secretions) is splitting hairs.

Bertrand

i don't understand your questions.
Are you saying you only get out of bed in the morning and all those other things because you look forward to eternal life? Or because your faith in God informs all your decisions?

Eternal life is a strong factor. Often, because I know I am a loved child of God.

Everything I do is influenced by my faith. I can freely choose, for instance, where to live. But I pray about it, because there are so many variables and I know God has a plan for my life. He will have different work for me in different places. I have my own priorities, (this place is near mum, that place has a good Church, the other has a good kitchen) When my priorities combine with his I find peace in the decision.

Sometimes, yes, the only reason I get out of bed is because God has given me the responsibility of children to look after.

In dark times I have been prevented from giving in because I know that God is there sustaining me and if I keep going, one day, this will end and I'll be in heaven.

Rebel rogue thinks that would be stifling.
I find it very freeing.

(I have a great life. Don't think I don't.)

Why would I teach my child something that I don't think is true, is true?

But you wouldn't be. You would be telling them that other people believe x, y, z. Some people don't think there are any gods. What is untrue about that?

Why would you teach yours? Or anyone teach theirs?

For the same reason I've given repeatedly. I think they need to able to appreciate and respect others, and have a basic understanding of their beliefs to aid that mutual respect. I also think they can evaluate the culture they live in if they understand what makes up that culture, and I have equipped them with the ability to think critically. Only exposing them to things I like/endorse/think are 'true' would run totally counter to that, as well as leaving them less able to understand and appreciate the priorities of those from different backgrounds.

I'm perfectly free to say 'I think x'. But I firmly believe I would be crossing a line if I then said to my children 'so you should think x as well.'

Fallen

Yes it is a church thing.
But catholics have always seen parish schools as part of the church.

In this they are different to church of England schools who provide schools to educate all the children who live in the parish.

(Which brings us back to public funding of education and catchment areas and lack of school places)

Sometimes, yes, the only reason I get out of bed is because God has given me the responsibility of children to look after.

Is it such a stretch of imagination to think that for those who don't believe in that god (or any gods), sometimes the only reason they get out of bed is because they have the responsibility of children to look after?

My children exist no less to me and matter no less to me than yours to you, simply because I don't believe that a deity was a middleman in their existence.

I'm perfectly free to say 'I think x'. But I firmly believe I would be crossing a line if I then said to my children 'so you should think x as well.'

Which I think is where we disagree.

Thank you Jassy for all the answers you've given me to the question I posed a while ago.

Errol But I think that is the issue for some. Competitive atheism. I don't think that therefore you are wrong

It's as bad as restrictive theism. It's the same my belief or non belief is better. Than your belief or non belief. Indoctrination and cultism can happen across all parts of the spectrum

I really struggle with that. It feels like not respecting one's children as individuals with the right to make their own choices.