Is it possible for atheists and theists to discuss their world views without one ooh t of view or the other feeling anything along a scale from dissatisfied to furious?

[BertrandRussell]

Theists get patronising, then defensive, atheists get exasperated, then angry. Is there another way? Or is it just completely impossible and not even worth trying?

Westray - that's appalling, WTF would anyone set up a school like that? Bad enough that there are separate 'faith' schools at all, especially in areas where they effectively support tribalism (be it the segregation in Norther Ireland or the stark split of 'white british' CofE schools/large majority Muslim 'nondoms' found in parts of Lancashire) but to explicitly design a school like that with dividers ... why?

I make my kids do all sorts of things they don't want to and don't agree with. Clean teeth, shower, wear clothes, turn off the TV, go to bed, be nice to their siblings and friends, stop fighting, not just eat sweets, for example.

I think, as you say, most of us make our kids do all sorts of things that they don't want to do. But we don't try to control what they think and believe, and that's the difference. I think it would be just as wrong to 'indoctrinate' a child that atheism is the only valid path as to push a particular religion. Your kids don't know for themselves that your way is the 'best way to live'. They have been told that by you, and discouraged from examining their own thoughts and beliefs for themselves.

I'm not surprised your 11 year old is confused if the existence of all this is new to her. It's quite a shift to a very protected world view. My five year old is absolutely fine with it because he has always known that different people believe different things about the world and where it comes from, in an age appropriate way. The confusion comes in when my approach is undermined by the school teaching that the Christian god is factual rather than what they, as Christians, believe.

In answer to your direct question, I try to impart to my son the value that all people are of equal value, despite the fact that they may believe different things. I don't think it's truly possible to do that while also taking a hardline 'but this is the only right thing to believe and all those other people are misguided/stupid/godless/can't feel or understand the same level of joy as you/are living inferior lives.' (All things I've had said to me on Mumsnet - the last is the natural flipside of 'knowing' that it's the 'best way to live'.

I don't think 'neutral' or secular is a philosophy in and of itself. It's providing a basis of nothing - the natural state of children - and giving them a platform to discover, question and understand for themselves.

errol- it's what the catholic community/church wanted.

It has only served to increase divisions.

C8 - re history and 'tribalism' - the nice ecumenical area I grew up in had a lot of retirees - so people from variety of backgrounds. But 'white british'.... the churches may have got along, but it's the only place to ever have had a UKIP MP. Ecumenical movements may be the consolidation of a larger, more powerful 'tribe' I suppose.

Westray - but why did the LEA or whoever go along with it? Did the church put up capital funding?

Westray

Kids fighting the neighbouring school happens with or without faith schools, that isn't new or particularly unusual. Is that why shared areas such as dining rooms are split?

It seems weird to build two schools in that way and no shared activities. Has it always been that way and has anyone asked why?

errol- it's Scotland so maybe a bit easier to understand.

It was Scotland's nfirst " super Campus. 2200 pupils taught on one site.

Pupils from both schools have been advised by teachers not to talk to each other.
Capital was raised under a Public Private Partnership scheme, which sees buildings leased to LA.

C8- yes there were always divisions, but become worse because of this school..

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/focus-class-divide-97wtqv76hc0

westray

Yes that seems like madness - there are places this wouldn't be a problem but to do this in an already divided society makes no sense without mutual buy in to desegregation. Times article is behind a paywall but this from wikipedia:

students were kept segregated due to threats of violence directed at one another and teachers of different religious backgrounds in addition to assault sounds grim if its accurate.

If this article is accurate it sounds like a triumph of stupidity over reality.

It's an odd idea, to me, that because you bring your children up with a certain religious world view you should have the right to send them to a school that teaches that world view. I have always voted Labour, but I have never demanded that the government create separate schools for the children of Labour voters, the children of Conservative voters and so on.

It's an odd idea, to me, that because you bring your children up with a certain religious world view you should have the right to send them to a school that teaches that world view.

And of course even that is a bit patchy as an idea, because it's confined almost exclusively to Christians of two denominations, and within that group further available only to a subset who have a school that aligns with their beliefs nearby.

Errol re history and 'tribalism'

Interesting I grew up in a very mixed environment religiously, culturally and immigration wise. The local ministers (including non Christian) all rubbed along together despite the main RC church being famous for being one of the last to stop the Tridentine Mass. It wasn't a wealthy community and people helped each other first, worried about their building of worship second. I was aware that even within one brand of Christianity there were many different traditions.

When we moved to an area which was less mixed and where the RC population were mostly from one white immigrant culture it was less tolerant (as were the host cultures) and more sectarian in attitudes.

Looking back the two experiences definitely contributed to my view that divisions are tribal more than religious and religion reflects society as much as vice versa.

Most of the Roman Catholics I knew/know are Irish, Italian or Polish. So yes, very culturally different to English RCs.

Interesting that there is a Neocat backlash against the reforms ( if I'm understanding correctly) I suppose it's inevitable. The current pope isn't as liberal as he is painted in some quarters, either......

hackmum

Sorry I took so long to reply, but am in a different time zone. He hasn't explained per se, but I think, in part, it is because atheists are questioning and, in part, although he has no personal problems with Christians, there is such a huge difference between the concepts of God/Allah and religious practice.

(Internet finally back on in my house)

bertrand
No. I thought I was paying most attention to your posts.
What did I miss?

Was it this?:
well, are you teaching your child how to be an atheist if it turns out that's what he wants to be?
How would one of your children go about being a Muslim or an atheist if that was the path they found appealing?

Because this was my answer:
I don't believe I can/it is possible/i should teach our children multiple worldviews or belief systems.
Which is why I was asking those who do.

To answer further: I can't help them. I just don't understand those ideas. Islam maybe I understand more than atheism. But if they want to follow those ideas I can't help them understand. They'd have to Google it or ask a mate who holds those ideas.

Did a miss another question?

Islam maybe I understand more than atheism. But if they want to follow those ideas I can't help them understand.

I find this really confusing and a little worrying. What is it about atheism you don't understand?

Separately, what would prevent you from learning alongside them if they showed an interest in a different faith? I can explain Christianity very well to DS (I used to be a Christian) but I can also give a decent rundown of the basic tenets of some of the other major world faiths. (And he has schooled me on Norse and Saxon gods, which has honestly been fascinating to explore together). What do you think your kids would need that you can't provide or facilitate if they decided Christianity wasn't for them, or wanted to explore other faiths?

I find it very confusing too.

I understand a bit about christianity as I have been exposed to it, Islam a little,other faiths not so much.

I do know that faith can be complex, the rules, the dogma, understanding the principles of faiths, the festivals, the reasons behind them.

Atheism is simple surely.

There is no god.
err and that's it.

Nothing more. Why is that hard to understand?

I can say muslims believe... atheists don't believe... hindus believe... etc. Yes I have a good understanding of the major strands of world thought. (Though these days I am more and more reluctant to say these things as I see how Christianity is misportrayed and so I presume I am equally misportraying other beliefs when I explain them.)

But I don't 'get' them.
I know atheist thought says 'there is no God'. I can explain that, but it makes no sense to me. I wake in the morning and it is just blinding obvious to me that God is real. How can I explain what it feels like to be an atheist? Or how they think?

I understand how a Muslim feels when they connect to the divine. I understand their desire for heaven. But many of their ideas don't make sense to me.

I could explain ideas academically maybe, (with a lot more study) but not with the...(I'm struggling for words) conviction(?) Love for it(?) With the 'spirit' of it(?)

So I would be doing the beliefs (or world views) an injustice. If my kid started to believe in say, Buddhism, what's the point of asking me?

Because at the end of the day, I find other world views are wrong. Maybe slightly, maybe grossly. (Just like atheists, I presume, feel when I start rabbiting on about the sky fairy).

How would one of your children go about being a Muslim or an atheist if that was the path they found appealing?

I haven't the faintest idea what my son need to become a Muslim. If he wants to that's up to him to find out. As for going about being an atheist- you don't need to do anything.

I know atheist thought says 'there is no God'. I can explain that, but it makes no sense to me. I wake in the morning and it is just blinding obvious to me that God is real. How can I explain what it feels like to be an atheist? Or how they think?

Why would you need to? You seem to be under some sort of delusion there is an atheist philosophy - that you have to be taught atheist belief tenets - that you have to be taught to be an atheist.

No one is taught to be an atheist. All the religions have vast amounts of rules and dogma.

Nothing I was taught at school or by my Catholic mother has ever led me to have any religious faith or believe in a god. No one taught me to be an atheist.

I don't think you have to try to explain everything. Certainly not what other people's subjective reality is like. Your 'experience of God' will be entirely different to that of some of your co-religionists. My 'what it feels like to be an atheist' will be different to, e.g. Lass's - coloured perhaps by once having been a Christian. No one 'taught' me to be an atheist either.

isittheholidaysyet but you believe in only one more god than I do- so you know exactly how that feels.

You don't ( presumably ) believe in Ganesh, or Thor, or Artemis or many of the other thousands gods that others believe in.
You are atheist when it comes to the snake god , the pot bellied monkey gods, and all of the others.

So we agree on that. I simply have one more than you do on the list.

Lass has said exactly what I wanted to in terms of 'why do you need to'. I don't understand why there is no ground between 'not exposing children to the idea of different faiths' and 'being able to explain in detail what it feels like to be a different or no faith'. What is the problem with 'this is what others believe. I don't think they're right, I believe x as you know, but they're not worse people or less than me because they believe something different.'

I don't know what it feels like to be a fully adult Christian who still has unwavering faith in Christianity, but I can tell my children the basis of what Christians believe, what their special days are and why, and I do a kick arse line in explaining the stories of the saints when we are in art galleries. I can do things in less depth for other major faiths but I can cover the basics. I think it's important that my kids understand what's important to other people. It feels like the first step to establishing a middle ground. Why is it 'an injustice' to help your kids know more about other people and what they believe?

I agree that you seem to put a lot of store in teaching your children what you want them to think, rather than teaching them how to learn and think critically and evaluate and come to their own conclusions.

My 'what it feels like to be an atheist' will be different to, e.g. Lass's - coloured perhaps by once having been a Christian. No one 'taught' me to be an atheist either.

I've never been a Christian. I was taught about Christianity and Catholicism but I've never been a practising Christian.

I have a distinct memory of being in a religious study class aged around 7 and thinking "I don't believe this". My family were not church goers ( lapsed Catholics before I was born although my mother took to Catholicism big time in her later years and tried to rope me in)

Atheism is simple surely.

There is no god.
err and that's it.
Nothing more. Why is that hard to understand?

Why would you need to? You seem to be under some sort of delusion there is an atheist philosophy - that you have to be taught atheist belief tenets - that you have to be taught to be an atheist.

There is no God.
OK that's sort of understandable, but to say 'that's it', is the hard bit for me as a believer to understand.

What makes you bother getting out of bed in the morning?
How do you know which job to take, course to take? Where to live? Whether to buy a house and which one to choose?
Who to make your 'significant other', and whether you should choose to have one.
What to teach your kids? Whether to try to have kids?
How do you decide morality?
How do you get self-worth?
Why do you bother continuing to stay alive if this is all there is?

Now, I know the answers to these questions will be different to all atheists. So I'm not really looking for answers to them.

However they are all things which are so integrally connected to my theist belief, they mean I can't understand when atheists say 'there's no God, that's it.' This is what I find hard to understand.

(Oh, and I was asked by Bertrand 'are you teaching your child how to be an atheist, if it turns out that's what he wants to be?)

I don't understand why you wouldn't want your children exposed to other religions. To understand that not everyone believes the same as them. Frankly, I'm not sure how you would manage it, once they are older than about 4!

I also don't understand why you don't want your doctor to even mention contraception to you. Don't you just say "No, thank you"