Is it possible for atheists and theists to discuss their world views without one ooh t of view or the other feeling anything along a scale from dissatisfied to furious?

[BertrandRussell]

Theists get patronising, then defensive, atheists get exasperated, then angry. Is there another way? Or is it just completely impossible and not even worth trying?

I don't think you have to have in depth knowledge of belief systems to tell your dc about them, and when it comes to atheism that is a lack of belief rather than a faith so very easy to say to them that some people do not believe in any god. I know the basics of the major religions (taught RE primary level) so I have been able to explain some stuff but only things they learn at school anyway, and have encouraged them to join in at school with Eid etc (always had delicious food at their primary school Eid party) - as I said before, as a Christian i think it is vital that dc learn about other world views and realise that it is a choice - they can understand that while still fairly young, if they are given information.

I don't know what it's like to be Muslim or atheist but it doesn't stop me explaining what that means. I don't have to explain each one as if it were truth - just as fact (as RE should be taught). Of course, to an extent they get a bias on Christianity as they experience it but I hope that is balanced with careful consideration of other viewpoints. I don't want my dc to have a faith that is forced or indoctrinated. That is not a faith of freedom.

Saying all that I recognise you are passionate about faith and I am completely with you on that

How old are your dc, and do they know about other faiths at all?

@isittheholidaysyet wow you link a lot of things to your belief in God. I'd find that very stifling.

So if you're religious, all those things are decided for you?

Lass that's similar to me at the same age. I remember refusing to pray which didn't go down well but after a while the school let it go

I don't understand why others would not understand why athethists don't have an internal moral compass.

Morality isn't god given

Wow isittheholidaysyet you have an arrogant stance.

So without religion you would be amoral?

You have a very low opinion of atheists.

isittheholidaysyet

Your ideas of living without god make no sense really.

It's like me asking you how you live without twin brothers.

I don't have a god shaped hole in my life.

And strangely I have managed to avoid marrying my father and eating my newborns. I don't need god to tell me that.

If you do I feel sorry for you.

Isit- i don't understand your questions.

Are you saying you only get out of bed in the morning and all those other things because you look forward to eternal life? Or because your faith in God informs all your decisions?

I don't understand why others would not understand why athethists don't have an internal moral compass

I know this one baffles me.

What makes you bother getting out of bed in the morning?
Because I'm alive? There are things to do? Both work and play ? A life to lead? Other people are expecting things from me?

How do you know which job to take, course to take?
why on earth would I need religion to decide that? I went to university at a time when less than 10% of the population did. My best subjects were English and History - law was an obvious choice for an ambitious , clever girl.

Where to live? Whether to buy a house and which one to choose?
Why on earth do I need religion for that? I like old houses and I love living in Edinburgh.

Who to make your 'significant other', and whether you should choose to have one

The bloke I fancied. He was very good looking and he is a good, dependable, reliable man.

What to teach your kids?
mainly to be kind, tolerant and unselfish (and quite a lot about classical music)

Whether to try to have kids?
Again- what on earth does religion have to do with this.

How do you decide morality?
Are you serious? Really you think one can have no concept of right and wrong unless a god tells you?

How do you get self-worth? Again - are you serious?

Why do you bother continuing to stay alive if this is all there is?
Sorry but what are you on about? I like my life. What do you mean "This is all there is"?

I don't have a god shaped hole in my life

Succinctly put Westray

So without religion you would be amoral?
You have a very low opinion of atheists.

I did NOT say atheists have no morals.
I said MY morals come from my belief in God and I don't know where I would get them from without that. Would I be amoral? I don't know.

I know all atheists have morals. They will be individual to each and may differ to mine.

The point was I don't understand how non-theists decide on the morals THEY have, because my are connected with theist belief.

Got to put kids to bed I'll be back later. Especially for you Bertrand.

(And I think some people may have asked things I've answered up thread, but I'll look properly in a while.)

(Late to the thread, playing catch up)

The thread title is a little misleading as whilst their is a 'theist' world view, there is no 'atheist' world view to compare. And that's the start of the problem, eg atheists dont create a collective morality (why would they?) which is confused by theists to mean that they have no morals. That couldn't be further from the truth because atheist's create a personal morality, whereas theists never develop their own belief's and just obey what a supernatural deity 'says' is moral. Big societal problem.

In my experience all theists are accepting of each other as they are able to suspend rational thought and the only difference is they have chosen a different name for their 'faith'. Atheists however represent the mirror to their irrationality they dont want to face. Even if its not said in discussion the existence of atheism is an affront to the delusion of people who believe in gods without reasonable evidence to do so. I mean you can't even get to proving Jesus actually existing never mind it being a deity or the son of a deity.

Being and knowing a lot of atheists in the UK I have never know anyone to ever teach their children to be atheists. We teach them how to think but never what to think. I expose my children to books/history/experiences from every religion, past and present (admittedly past deities are a bit more interesting to children). Never once have I or anyone I know ever been asked, "mummy, which god is the real god".

However I do know children who are indoctrinated from birth into religions sometime even beaten into them, who will shun you because you are an unbeliever. What chance do they ever have.

So when I have a discussion with a 'theist' I usually start with, "do you believe my children are going to hell and is that what you teach your children?"

Morals as described in the bible are simply observations and documentations of altrusitic behaviours which exist in peaceful societies.
Not god given or initially revealed by the bible.
Many of the altrusitic behaviours which help us live in a peaceful society can be seen in other mammals, higher primates, even insects.

Doesn't take a genius to work that out.

The bible doesn't even do a particularly good job of encouraging altrusim, it condones slavery, misogyny, and the ten commandments are fairly laughable, the first four being connected to preserving god's ego.

Bible suggests public stoning, genocide, human sacrifice.

Any christian using that book as a basis for a moral compass and still manages to lead an altrusitic life deserves a brownie badge for cherry picking.

What a great opener Jamie. Sets a positive tone I'm sure.

What a great opener Jamie. Sets a positive tone I'm sure.

Sorry, recent events have made me a bit ... short tempered.

I was born, brought up and educated as a Catholic. I worked very hard on my faith until my early teens, when I realised that nothing - absolutely nothing - that I had been taught made any sense. It was another 20 years or so before I was able to resolve the emotional conflict that ensued, both internally and with respect to my family.
The problem with Catholicism, as I understand it, is that it requires one to believe that without faith, there is only despair. You wake up in the morning and find no joy in being alive. Love is merely lust. Simple human morality does not exist without the sanction of the Almighty. You are scrutinised in thought, word and deed in every moment of the day. You are not capable or worthy of making decisions about your life without them being compatible with religious doctrine. If you choose not to believe, you are eternally damned. These points were made clear to me by the nuns and priests responsible for my education.
I'm not surprised now that I was so messed up. To me, none of the superficially kindly and attractive traits of the Catholic faith in any way make up for the underlying cruelty and control. I suspect that other major religions, as well as minor cults in which these tendencies are evident, operate in a similar way. So I deplore religion in general and can't find anything positive about it to discuss.
(These thoughts were prompted by a pp's observation that without faith there would be no point in getting up in the morning or in fact doing anything at all.)

So when I have a discussion with a 'theist' I usually start with, "do you believe my children are going to hell and is that what you teach your children?"

As a theist, I don't

In my experience all theists are accepting of each other as they are able to suspend rational thought and the only difference is they have chosen a different name for their 'faith'. Atheists however represent the mirror to their irrationality they dont want to face

But of course it is impossible to talk to someone who is so absolutely certain not only that they are right, but that you are stupid and have nothing to contribute to their universe of knowledge.

Westray- it is very important when talking about Christian morality, to remember that many Christians, particularly (I think) Roman Catholics, mean the New Testament when they say the Bible

it is very important when talking about Christian morality, to remember that many Christians, particularly Roman Catholics, mean the New Testament

As a person who escaped religion, I dont remember the memo about the old testament being scrapped? Its still sold as part of gods word, the 'Bible'.

Exodus 20?

Every christian I have met hold the 10 commandments as important.

I wonder if theists understand how absolutely horrifying death is to an athethist child. To develop an understanding that there is no afterlife takes a lot if thinking and for me contemplation.

But at the same time you develop an understanding that this is it. You have to be moral within this life. There is no redemption. There is nothing to forgive you

I was brought up atheist. I thought permanent death sounded a lot more pleasant than eternal torture in hell and didn't find it difficult to understand at all. I struggle far more with the concept of resurrection as a Christian than I did with the concept of permanent annihilation as an atheist.

You are lucky Broom it took longer for me

I wonder if theists understand how absolutely horrifying death is to an athethist child. To develop an understanding that there is no afterlife takes a lot if thinking and for me contemplation.

my child has never believed in god, but afaik has no particular horror of death. And 'no afterlife' can only be a issue if you've ever thought there was one. Why would a child think there was an 'afterlife', unless someone had told them there was? I used to be a Christian and therefore believed in some sort of afterlife... it really didn't exercise my mind much at all to lose this concept along with my belief in god. Most of us have no problem with not having existed before our births, the universe managed just fine without me. Same deal when I'm dead.

So when I have a discussion with a 'theist' I usually start with, "do you believe my children are going to hell and is that what you teach your children?"

If your children grow up to be shit human beings then yes they are. Right now I don't have any way of knowing,and just bcs they don't believe in God is not reason enough.