To think I am going to get totally shafted here

[HarrietKettleWasHere]

I'm a nanny. As my one charge is of an age where she doesn't 'need' me as much, I've picked up various PA duties for my employer so it's remained a full time position. I stay over when she's away (single parent) I care for two slightly highly strung dogs, I keep the diary, organise shopping etc etc.

Now my charge is off to boarding school in September. Yes, I 'knew' it was coming (I took her to the interviews and exams for one thing and was there when she got her acceptance letter) BUT my employer made no mention of when my job would come to a natural end. I didn't want to 'show my hand' as it were and have waited for her to approach me with end dates/redundancy talk etc.

This morning, in an email (a 'no subject' one at that!) she has said she 'proposes' I work up until the 21st July. After that she'll pay holiday outstanding.

No mention of redundancy paid which I'm sure I must be owed since it's not me choosing to leave the job. Statutory at least? It's been over three years.

I'm shaking now, partly because I don't know what I'm going to do (find another job obviously but don't have lots of time, less than I thought I would)

Partly because after three years she hasn't sat me down face to face to talk this through (she's using the excuse she doesn't want her daughter to overhear )

Because I need the payment as a cusion if I do t find work straight away- I rent a flat with my partner and rent payment is high enough to warrent we are both in constant full time employment or we'd be screwed.

Also because I'm shit with things like this, I go quietly rather than make a fuss (self esteem issues) but I think I'm going to get massively screwed over if I do not speak up.

Please wise mumsnetters, advice on what to do would be really, really appreciated. I feel a sick abs have no idea what my next move should be.

like I said my previous role is 3yr contracts as standard (in universities - UK wide - nothing dodgy) - you don't get paid redundancy at the end of your contract - the job is finished -you aren't being made redundant.

It is a redundancy as the job has finished. Just because your organisation is doing it wrong doesn't mean the way they do it is the law.

We are going to talk when she gets in from work apparently so I will be brave and firm yet polite and hopefully be able to outline what I believe I'm entitled to.

Good luck MamaScrap

Aw thanks Reow

The OP doesn't have to talk to ACAS - it is completely bloody crystal clear that she is entitled to redundancy, as the job she does is being made redundant. There is ample information available explaining this

Exactly this. And as other posters have said, the lack of a written contract is irrelevant. A contract of employment is implied because the worker has been working under the direction of the employer, and the employer has been paying the worker.

But I'd ask for the reference first, and bring up the redundancy payment later. It's not an optional extra, it's your right as a worker with more than 2 years' service. Payments as follows:

half a week’s pay for each full year you were under 22
one week’s pay for each full year you were 22 or older, but under 41
one and half week’s pay for each full year you were 41 or older

And I think you're getting an unfairly hard time OP for not raising this first. I'd be a bit nervous in this situation of suggesting anything that could be interpreted as resignation. Nannying is a particularly sensitive and difficult employer/employee relationship.

How did it go Harriet?

unlucky I have also been on a fixed term contract at a university. They went through a (limited as it was obvious why my contract was ending) consultation and I got a redundancy payment. I can't see why you wouldn't be entitled to it if you've worked there more than 2 years as PPs have said.

You're contradicting yourself as the thread goes on OP:

I felt that if I got offered a job then I'd be handing in my notice my boss which would mean she wouldn't have to pay me anything

i though I was doing the right thing waiting for my boss to sit down and discuss things with me properly

You've had lots of advice on the employment side of this thread. However, what you want to look back on and take forward is your relationship.

I think you've been incredibly naive, from what you have said it's been perfectly clear that your services may no longer be required and if you had a definite view beyond the terms of your contract (written or otherwise) e.g. of end date, notice period etc then it was your responsibility to say so. In your own words you didn't address it because you wanted her to pay you off.

Your employer has not incorrectly made the assumption that you are working to the contract in its basic terms. She has given you more than the required notice and she has done so in writing. Although it could have been done a little more sensitively I really don't see the problem with this. By not responding to your redundancy question I expect she is also seeking to consult obligations to make sure you get what is fair.

I would strongly recommend that you don't allow the feedback on this thread to anger you, there's simply no indication that she's out to screw you over. It's blindly obvious that at some point the job as it currently stands has to come to an end (you've been taking the girl to interviews!).

I would urge you to overcome whatever your worries are about the email and work towards an amicable departure. It's not worth throwing away three years of hard work and good will, just make sure things are done by the book. It may be that going forwards you want some extra work in the evenings, weekends or school holidays and this could be an ideal way to forge a new relationship for the future which is based a bit more on mutual understanding.

Please also learn from your own mistakes and take the lessons forward. Aside from not having an answer to the redundancy question which should be clear in employment law then I don't think she's actually done anything wrong.

Good luck.

Well my boss says her company (I'm on the payroll of it) doesn't really 'do' redunancy payments, but that she will look into it as in the past people who have been let go have received a lump sum and she says that since my job is ceasing to exist I am due something. So I have to wait to see what she comes up with.

It was fine, she said she'd be writing a reference, is prepared to do telephone references, and has said that she will keep in touch and I'll see my charge when she's back in the holidays. Can do the odd overnight/weekend maybe if she's on business.

Still a bit at the posters who seem to imply that I'm seeing what I can 'get' and money grabbing. I am losing my job, six weeks before I expected. My HALF of the rest not including bulls is £580 a month. Of course I need get what I am due.

Thank you to all the lovely posters who took time to provide helpful advice though

Sorry rent not rest.

I'm an employment lawyer and OP, you haven't made any mistakes at all.

The definition of a redundancy situation is a reduced need for employees to do work of a particular kind - so here, as there is no child to nanny, it's clearly a redundancy situation.

You're legally entitled to a consultation period, as well as three weeks notice and three weeks redundancy pay (assuming you're between 22 and 41, otherwise the amount will vary).

As she hasn't followed a procedure, you could theoretically claim unfair dismissal, but it probably wouldn't be worth it. If you did then you could ask for compensation to reflect the amount of time a fair dismissal would have taken (which would probably be offset by the additional notice, so zero), but you could also claim 2-4 weeks gross pay for a failure to provide a written statement of employment particulars, and 2 weeks gross pay for failing to provide written reasons for dismissal. You're also legally entitled to a breakdown of your statutory redundancy pay.

If she doesn't pay redundancy pay then I'd be inclined to go for all of the above amounts. She's your employer and ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Thanks for posting OP as this will be me soon. 11 years almost with four kids one of whom has left home to board and a second heading out in sept.I can see the end coming but its really hard to know when if they dont talk to you about it - and it is a really hard subject to bring up yourself. One great thing my family do is schedule an annual review so at least I have a vague idea of their thoughts going forward.

Good luck finding something else

Her company doesn't really 'do' redundancy payments

Err. If they make people redundant then they need to!

Glad it went well, OP. Keep an eye on it and if you think you are getting less than you are entitled to then please do pursue. You can be polite and assertive, she'll expect it if she's any good at business!

Yes as a nanny you are entitled to redundancy pay like every other PAYE employee.

I don't think she could face telling you - I can hear from how upset you are that you have also found this difficult, she SHOULD have definitely sat you down face to face, equally you have tried to avoid the issue too.

Clearly after three years you are all quite close, but I WOULD ask for the redundancy in a nice way - and given how you have cared for her child, I hope she will do the right thing.

I would also ask her to help you find something else, very often it is a good way to introduce you to other families.

Also agency work is a good plan B if you haven't the time to find something you like. Good nannies are in high demand, so I am pretty sure you will find something soon. Good luck!!

Yes you are due redundancy if you have worked for over 2 years - but it won't be much as you have only worked 3 years.

Who does your payroll - Nannytax or another service provider ? Why don't you suggest asking them then to set out the position ( the tax on redundancy differs from pay) Such advice is covered in the annual fee.

Your employer should have had a discussion about this but then given they did not you should have asked.

I do think some employers try to dodge redundancy .

bapn.org.uk/nanny-information/redundancy-from-a-nanny-job/

Most nannies are hired on a self employment basis so you would have paid tax and NI yourself. If she's been doing this for you then you have proof of her as an employer. I suspect she will say either way that it was a three year contract and therefore you're not entitled to redundancy pay. She's also given you over a month's notice (although three would have been politer). I suggest that you're best bet is to start looking for another job asap...

Pollymere - do you know anything about employment law? I'm astonished by the number of posters who have no idea but think they should get in their ha'pennyworth....

I don't think 'most' nannies are self employed at all actually. Where have you got that from?

And yes also to a PP as I understand it redundancy does kick in only if you're employed more than two years, but you get pay for all the years you've worked once that kicks in.

So perhaps to you £1600 wouldn't 'be much' but that would actually make a huge difference to me while I'm job-hunting

Well my boss says her company (I'm on the payroll of it) doesn't really 'do' redunancy payments

Her company breaks the bloody law then! Your salary is NOT a company expense, and she should be paying at least the legal minimum required in a redundancy situation.

Her company doesn't do redundancy payments but gives people lump sums when they leave?

The woman sounds a bit scattered to me, it's probably a good time for you to firmly-but-fairly control the process rather than "waiting to see what she comes back with."

Most nannies are hired on a self employment basis so you would have paid tax and NI yourself.

I'm afraid this is utter bollix. It is very unlikely that anyone working as a nanny meets the self-employment tests under IR35.

The nannies I've met that are 'self enployed' are working for cash in had!

most of us however expect to be treated as an employer with taxes payable, pensions and payslips and the like. Since we are employed and doing an actual job.