To be ashamed of Theresa May's slant on immigration

[thinkiamgoingcrazy]

No mention by her last night of the many positives. Or the net contribution that immigration makes to the coffers. Just a focus on bringing those numbers down because "that's what people want" and "for lots of reasons".

(Yes there have been issues in some places that have seen a huge increase in incomers, and where there has been a large downward pressure on wages. I am not saying nothing has to be done, but the first call IMO, should have been better investment in those areas and better monitoring and policing of unscrupulous employment practices.)

Instead, and since the Tory conference last year, the language that is being used is unfriendly, divisive and excluding. Also some of the policies that are being planned.

I think that it would benefit our country more, as well as the many contributing and hard working people from other countries who live and bring up their families here, if the rhetoric were more welcoming and inclusive. Not only that but people that we need are either leaving or not coming here. IMO that's embarrassing and shameful. How sad that numbers will go down / have been going down, because our brand is now inward looking and closed . I really don't think that this makes economic, political or social sense.

By "othering" I mean using language and carrying out actions that separate the "indigenous" people (who are these people in any case?) from the others, many of whom now feel like outsiders, despite in many cases contributing for many years and having families - often with British partners and children

I may have missed it but has anyone on this thread referred to indigenous people? In fact the data suggests that % of people of ethnic minorities who are not happy with current levels of immigration is not that much less than % of white British people.

*It is questionable what contributions immigrants make, many are on low wages so pay litttle tax, when they have children the cost probably outweigh the taxes they pay when you allow for child benefits, schooling etc.

Some do not work and get welfare for some reason.

Then there is the massive demand to concrete over the countryside to build more houses, roads, etc.

The population of the UK is quite high enough*

*For every extra person coming to the UK we need extras. Extra transport, extra housing, extra medical services, extra schooling etc etc etc. We just can't go on like this.

Just look at the number of cars on the roads. Traffic issues and trying to get anywhere...

It just cannot go on.*
*It's not racist to want controlled borders. It's not racist to not want oversubscribed schools, full GP and dentist practices etc. It's not racist to want the government to help the people born in its country before extending a hand to others.

It just makes sense*

^^ all the above..

I don't know. Mist immigrants I know have advanced degrees and excellent jobs with good pay. You can't win either way with some people.

mimi That's more likely the area you live in.

Most immigrants where I'm from also have degrees and good jobs, but that's not representative of the majority. You can look at census results to see that.

The Tory party conference started the othering with the horrible dog whistling language used, amongst other things May's reference to "citizens of nowhere". Since then the measures put in place to make it hard for people to get PR have been intensified. Often people who have lived here for years but who fall down on one of the hundreds of box ticking exercises in the 85 page form are then sent letters told to "prepare to go home".

Businesses, if the Tories get their way, will be sanctioned for employing foreigners.

Schools sending out forms asking for children's nationality and place of birth.

These are just some off the top of my head.

Land of their ancestors? How far back do we go? I myself have a continental mother and an English father - am I supposed to leave? In any case our history is one characterised by successive waves of immigration.

British people are in any case not anywhere near being a "minority". Define "British" please.

I don't think the individual people will stagnate, but I think that innovation (anywhere) comes from fresh blood and ideas. Immigrants to any country have by definition huge amounts of energy and drive, and I think that overall that can but benefit the countries they go to, though it may have to be better managed at local level to avoid unscrupulous firms hiring for people for peanuts etc...

Whether or not you agree with Merkel's decision to let in a large number of Syrians, she did it partly to boost productivity and to lend support to an ageing population.

Added to which do we want to be the thriving place that people want to come to and contribute to, or do we want to close our doors and make people feel unwelcome?

And it might help if the Tories hadn't hugely cut funding for English lessons for adults.

Whatever your views on immigration I have to say I find the idea that we need fresh blood and ideas for innovation very, very offensive.

I think the people we have living in the UK now are perfectly capable of innovating and developing positively. This idea that we are somehow lacking in some spark or drive which only immigrants can provide, well, if we were talking about any other country such a view would be looked at rather askance, wouldn't it?

The thing is, bringing in more people to "help" with the ageing population is counterintuitive. It just means that the ageing population and disproportionate number of elderly problem will continue into the future. At the moment, it can be stopped after the Baby Boomers die, because the average British family only has a replacement level birth rate, but if you continue to bring more and more people in, you're ensuring that the problem continues well into the future.

Also, her immigration policy has backfired and many countries are feeling the effects of it, so.

thinkiamgoingcrazy

So do you think immigration should be completely uncontrolled?

You misinterpret me. Nothing to do with offensive. I think many ideas come when people from different places, including the UK naturally, put their heads together. This doesn't mean that on their own countries do nothing. But cooperation and exchanges of ideas are massive drivers IMO.

And it wasn't a comment specific to the UK. I think the same applies everywhere.

I think it is one of the reasons that the effect that Brexit may have on our scientific research is worrying for example.

My last post was to wrongtrouser.

No I don't think immigration should be completely uncontrolled (and it isn't in any case), but I would agree with Corbyn that the way it is brought down is through better control of unscrupulous employers etc... I don't know what the answer is but I don't like the Tory way of dealing with the issue.

I struggle with free movement as I would want to keep that, but would agree with the government using powers which it actually already has to moderate it or put a brake on it as and when necessary.

I really believe in the European project but free movement possibly needs some kind of reform as it is not an easy beast to manage. I don't know.

Well exactly that's kind of the point, so in the absence of having an answer it is to berate someone who has presented one. We all want immigration controlled, let's start looking for solutions rather than starting threads slagging people off because you happen to entirely agree with theirs.

But you can have exchange of ideas and controlled immigration or visas for specific areas like science without having uncontrolled immigration in the hundreds of thousands every year. If there are benefits from some immigration but not all, then why not have the beneficial immigration without the immigration which doesn't benefit the people of the UK?

Which is possibly what you are saying...

This troubles me wrongtrouser. Why should the UK pick and choose the skills they want, often from less developed countries? It feels wrong to me.

I don't agree with the Tory stance at all increasingly. There is much to be slagged off there IMO. I don't want immigration reduced to 10s of thousands which is what they are suggesting for a start.

Someone asked me if I would want completely uncontrolled immigration and I answered that question. That doesn't mean I agree with the government.

I

So what do you want?

I do fundamentally agree with freedom of movement though just at times and in some places it causes issues.

What I don't agree with is the divisive rhetoric coming from the government, which then means that talented and energetic people are put off from coming here.

I meant that at times FOM causes issues. That was badly worded.

Why should the UK pick and choose the skills they want, often from less developed countries? It feels wrong to me.

Seems eminently sensible to have a migration system based on whatever skills gap the country is currently lacking.

At the end of the day you can't aspire to some Scandinavian style welfare state while simultaneously having a lax inward migration policy.

An open and welcoming country. That's what I want. That doesn't make the foreigners already living here feel unwelcome. And many now do.

Yes have an immigration policy, but without being divisive. Which is what the Tories are.

Keep FOM but manage it differently if necessary (), and stay in the EU.

That is my ideal world.

And yes I know it isn't going to happen.

I think freedom of movement works perfectly when countries are similar in relation to wealth. When some countries are poorer though it becomes very one sided and has some negative impacts on both the richer and poorer nations.

So in which case the only answer without 'racism' is a quota system of different skill levels and ages. To keep immigration controlled and to ensure we don't cream off the high skilled young people that poorer countries need. We also need to train British people in jobs like nursing and stop talking it down - there are bloody good jobs in nursing but we just hear about low pay yada yada.

Then we need to decide what level of quota to give.... 10,000; 100,000; 1,000,000....?

So in which case the only answer without 'racism' is a quota system of different skill levels and ages. Sounds interesting.

Forgot another piece of Tory shamefulness:

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38918317

This troubles me wrongtrouser. Why should the UK pick and choose the skills they want, often from less developed countries? It feels wrong to me

Actually, I agree with you on this. I find it odd that many people think it is acceptable that we, as a rich country, are happy to import skilled, trained workers from less wealthy countries so that we don't have to pay for training.

I think the best answer would be to train the people we need ourselves - doctors, nurses etc, instead of poaching. We can afford it.