to be a bit sick of the notion that we need to do things to ensure there is no division of muslim vs other?

[myoriginal3]

I don't hear about these attacks and then go about the place attacking anyone dressed in Muslim attire?
Why does everyone feel the need to tell us NOT to hate the muslim community?
I see no evidence of anyone actually doing this.
It's quite insulting to be honest. As if, because one man has committed a heinous act I would go around abusing all Muslims.
Give us some credit.

I suspect he was years in the making with extremists encouraging him and dispelling his doubts all the way

well it looks like his own dad was one of them, so yes perhaps - years with extremists

Incidentally I think it's interesting that on threads like this any fear of retaliation or fear of going about ones business on the part of Muslims is always blamed on racists specifically and white people in general.

Nobody ever seems to consider that suspicion, division and anger might be the the responsibility of the person who let off the bomb do they? Because of course threads like these aren't designed to make us remember that all this has happened because a Muslim let off a bomb are they? They're designed to move the narrative on and cast the villain as 'teh racists' in the hope people will forget what actually caused all this in the first place.

Oh bill. Let's talk about the women raped and the children's abused and the people murdered every day by good christians eh? When's the last time the papers (not Fwr) talked about the problem with men in this country? Or the violence by white people against everyone else every day? I don't see white English people prepared to discuss it.

I have seen evidence of this on social media and with friends and family. Lots of 'round them up and kick them out' and 'if they don't like it here, send them home' comments.

I do feel for those many ordinary decent Muslims who are automatically assumed to be responsible for the actions of one evil person. As a national of another country with an organisation responsible for appalling terrorist attacks, I know how it feels to be referred to as 'your lot' when past events are mentioned in conversation. It is incredibly hurtful and difficult to have your national identity and religion associated with the most awful hateful acts especially when others assume that this is representative of what everyone else is like. I have felt truly ashamed and angry that these people claim to represent me.

However, I agree with what PPs have said. The greatest force and influence on these extremists is their own community. Only when those who support them and shield them at all levels say enough is enough will things start to change.

flip that is bordering on hate speech - which I am sure you must agree is never right.

Nobody ever seems to consider that suspicion, division and anger might be the the responsibility of the person who let off the bomb do they?

He's not responsible for how people react. He's just responsible for killing and injuring those people.

Now, what if white supremacists happened to treat this man badly enough that he sought comfort and support among radical Islam?

Who'd be responsible then?
See, for me it's still him. But, by your reasoning, it would be the others.

He argued that Islam needs to have a process of assessing it's cultural underpinnings just like Europeans did post war and rejecting those that discriminate or push hatred.

It makes sense.
The problem is that it took a world war for the West to undergo this reflection.
The other problem is that we can't do it for the Muslim world. It's an internal process. All we can do is avoid doing ourselves what we criticise. No othering. No blaming all for the acts of a few. No overreactions. And mostly, forgiveness.

You must live in a nice world OP, not the one I live in unfortunately.

I also feel that there should be no excuses or attempts to blame others for the actions of terrorists like this. There seems to be a lots of navel gazing and talk about what happened in his life that might have led to this. Who's fault is it he was so full of hate? Was it the community, schools, social services, police?

While it's important to learn lessons the blame should not be shifted on to the rest of us. There will be questions asked of the police and an attempt to blame them for not stopping him. This is not our fault, this is not the fault of the police. The only ones to blame are those that carry out these evil things.

His father was a rebel who fought against ghadafi and was granted asylum in the uk because he was tortured by Libyan officials. His father had raised concerns about his sons beliefs in the past. If his father had been in the uk right now and not Libya I doubt he'd have been arrested

I understood it was his mother who reported him.

He's not responsible for how people react. He's just responsible for killing and injuring those people.

Don't agree with this at all. It's pretty well known that ISIS would like to provoke an all out civil war between Muslims and non-Muslims so the sort of reaction like setting fire to a mosque is exactly the sort of response they're looking for. I don't know how you can say someone is not responsible if they provoke a reaction they intended to provoke.

It's pretty well known that ISIS would like to provoke an all out civil war between Muslims and non-Muslims

Indeed. And what better way to try to provoke one

I am sure most people don't want to see a civil war.

I don't know how you can say someone is not responsible if they provoke a reaction they intended to provoke.

It's different knowing (or guessing) what types of reactions will occur and be responsible for them.
Each one of us is the only responsible for how we respond. The clue is that we all respond differently.

Are you saying that if I burnt a Mosque that I wouldn't be responsible? That I'd be justified in doing so as a response to a random terrorist attack?

The only ones to blame are those that carry out these evil things.

Indeed.

However, if we want to prevent such attacks happening with increased frequency, I think it's appropriate that we understand what led these people to commit these attacks. Without compromising our identity or our way of life, of course.
More like "what can we do, what can we learn to do better?" rather than navel gazing.

I wouldn't blame the police. They can't be 100% effective. But I'm sure they will be able to learn from this.

@msgrinch and @hidingtonothing you both asked if smiling at a muslim person to reassure them is a good thing or patronising... I love it when people do smile to reassure, or say hello in passing by, or make small talk about the weather (always the weather lol), or the shopping queue or whatever. You will not be thought of as patronising anyone, believe me. I have to smile widely as well to make sure people see I'm not a perturbed about to blow myself up muslim. Its sad, but this is the reality of times we're living in.

And if you see someone in trouble, please do as @mycatsapirate suggests. Go up to them, ask them how are they, make sure they are not alone in face of aggression.

to those who say Muslim communities should look inwards, I believe they are right, but the thing is, we ARE looking inwards, we have loads of programmes happening to get kids busy rather than up to no good, but here's the thing, we can only do that much. A common picture with all previous attacks is the perpetrator has either a history of crime or violence, or some mental health problem due to socioeconomic reasons. They find refuge in those who are able to feed more misery in them (your daesh recruiter), and these sort of people dont really mingle with the normal muslim community. They are secretive, they are like a cult. How can we keep track of them when the secret services have trouble to keep track of all of them?

@billsykesdog you said "The jist of his argument was very much that Islam as a whole still has dominant schools of thought which are othering, divide the world into us and them, good and bad, right and wrong and views Islam as a superior set of values and those outside of less worth and more deserving of hatred purely on the basis of their race or beliefs. And that this set of values is what is at it's most extreme producing extremist terrorists. It sounds very much like European attitudes in the 1930s." I am a born Muslim, from a Muslim country and in my 30 odd years of practising Islam to varying degree, I have never come across any teacher, or religious cleric personally who says to hate others who are non- muslim because they deserve to be hated. That actually goes against the principle of doing 'dawah' or calling people to islam. Erm, noone would listen to me if i started hating people. Yes, there is good and bad, some of it which pertains to how we worship God, but most of it is about how to go about our daily business of living. As Muslims, we HAVE to be humans first, because for every wrong I do to another human, I would have to pay for it- this is what we believe. The concept of good and bad is found in every culture, religion, society, and similarly every culture, religion and society believes that they have the best values. I dont see anything wrong with that. So long as you leave me to mine, and I leave you to yours, why does it matter?

Going back to my post yesterday. I then had to explain to my child why i was upset because a bad man was rude.

I told my husband about it and my other child aged 4 was listening and started asking questions. I had to exolain to him sometimes people are it very nice for no reason at all. And sometimes we might have some nasty people say things because we are different. My kids have names from their father, my dhs, country/heritage. They should be proud. They are half english as i am english and we gave them english middle names too. Partly because we know one day if even once they would feel more comfortable using an english name. They are very white, all have my coloiring. My dp is quite dark mediteraan and he says its good they hve my colouring so they wont receive horrible comments. To think like this for your kids is awful. And sometimes i wonder if i shouldnt of had children so they dont wotness or receive this abuse...but then i remember these things hapoen wherever and they are our blessings.

OhNo - I agree with most of what you say other than this..

similarly every culture, religion and society believes that they have the best values. I dont see anything wrong with that. So long as you leave me to mine, and I leave you to yours, why does it matter?

I don't think my culture or society (white british) has the best values, I think it has some good ones and some that need changing. I think that there is lots my culture could learn from other cultures and lots it can teach. Feeling that your culture is superior leads to the feeling that others cultures are inferior, and as soon as we start seeing others as inferior then we are entering dangerous territory

What specifically do you mean Splodge?

Sorry I meant which part of British values do you feel needs changing?

You'd be surprised. I live in a pretty Muslim area because I'm poor and not especially well-educated. That's because the same crap was said about us (Irish). We know how this works. I think most of the racism comes mostly from those who've done well out of the whole divide and rule game honestly.

I will admit i have a massive problem with religion in general because most of them are misogynistic.

OP if you're on Twitter have a look at Adil Ray's (citizen khan) feed. He's spent the last 48 hours fending off racist abuse and trying to calmly explain to total arse holes (including Piers Morgan and Michael Vaughn) about the Muslim community.
It should give you a fairly good idea of why some people need to be told certain things.

There's plenty of casual bigotry going round these days against all religions. Yes, Mr Fry, looking at you, although the remarks were comparatively mild. It has become unexceptional unexceptional to make remarks about the flying spaghetti monster, pie in the sky, and various derogatory remarks, the equivalent of which wouldn't be tolerated for a second about gays, ethnic minorities etc.

It reflects society's changed values. They're still pretty ignorant though.

Muslims get it particularly bad because of the activities of their so-called co-religionists. Anyone who denies this is almost certainly dishing it out.

Please remember that the Manchester bomber got banned from his own mosque because of his extremist views, after getting into a fight with the Iman who preaches against extremism. Following this his mosque also reported him to the Home Office as a potential extremist.

And that his own family reported him to the police, tried to force him to leave England, and even confiscated his passport to try to prevent him from returning to England.

And that several Muslims from his own community who knew him well phoned the terrorism hotline on multiple occasions over the course of five years to report him because they were frightened he would commit a suicide bombing.