to think it's finally time England deals with its Katy Hopkins problem?

[Fliptophead]

I know she feeds off publicity and the best thing really would be to ignore her until she shrivels and dies of fame starvation so I apologise for the thread but this is really too much now isn't it?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/manchester-bombing-katie-hopkins-final-solution-muslims-arena-terror-attack-phillip-schofield-a7750656.html

Of course KH is a poisonous troll who should lose her job for using such a revolting phrase (and she knows full well what it means).

Aside from that,( as her fascist ramblings cannot be allowed to be part of the debate) I think that we as a country do need to address the problem of radicalisation in a really targeted and sustained way.
It seems to me that a lot of MNetters look at the issue from a sort of safe distance, and it's mainly theoretical. They go to work with people from many cultural backgrounds and think " well we are all the same really, why can't we all get along?"
But there are many parts of this country which have become increasingly ghettoised, and where radicalism is growing, seemingly unchecked.
I grew up in such a town, with my neighbours and classmates being over 50% asian, with many Muslims. The people my age (40) were usually born in the UK, their parents having come in the 50s and 60s.
There were always some divisions, but on the whole there was integration. Now, in the same area, the children of my contemporaries are much more outwardly conservative than their parents.
Many of them only socialise within the very narrow community. They girls have their heads, and sometimes faces, covered (they never used to).
One of my ex boyfriends( a progressive Muslim) has stopped attending the mosque he has been going to all his life as he is getting so frustrated with the Imam failing to even try to reach the young people, or even discuss the problem.
Meanwhile all these kids are connected online to God knows what, and their parents are clueless.
If fundamentalist Christians wanted a fundamentalist Christian State across the world, and went about blowing people up in the name of their religion,I would expect Christian religious leaders to be having summit meeting, formulating a serious strategy, actually tackling it, not just mumbling a few placatory words and then ignoring.
It's too simplistic to say "oh most Muslims are peaceful". Well, yeah, duh, of course they are. But the IS a massive movement among the young and seemingly dissafected, and it's happening under our noses, and it can't be swept under the carpet anymore.
And it's NOT to do with white vs brown, or Christian vs Muslim. It's actually, imho, to do with young vs older.

Tagging KH for using the words "final solution" which she deleted and reworded are not the same as someone who has been trained in Syria with the explicit purpose to kill infidels.

Someone with nazi memorabilia in their front room is not the same as someone who has been trained in Syria with the explicit purpose to kill infidels.

How would you know what they did in another country?

And how do you know someone with Nazi memorabilia won't decide to go on a killing spree?

You don't need to be trained to kill people. You just need a car.

How can you possibly prevent all attacks?

Someone with nazi memorabilia in their front room is not the same as someone who has been trained in Syria with the explicit purpose to kill infidels.

Tell that to Breivik.

not the same as someone who has been trained in Syria with the explicit purpose to kill infidels.

Visiting Syria is not a crime, neither is taking part in a militia exercise, this is why they are being watched, not arrested. I've visited North Korea and attended a lecture about the wonders of North Korea, should I be arrested as a potential threat?

And plenty of Nazi groups conduct militia training. It's pretty standard.

It's too simplistic to say "oh most Muslims are peaceful". Well, yeah, duh, of course they are. But the IS a massive movement among the young and seemingly dissafected, and it's happening under our noses, and it can't be swept under the carpet anymore.

I agree. But calling for "final solutions" makes the problem worse, not better.

It's too simplistic to say "oh most Muslims are peaceful". Well, yeah, duh, of course they are. But the IS a massive movement among the young and seemingly dissafected, and it's happening under our noses, and it can't be swept under the carpet anymore.

I agree completely. This disaffection is the crux of the problem. And people like KH and her "final solutions" and arresting their neighbours for visiting Syria doesn't do anything but isolate them more.

"Cracking down" makes things worse, not better.

"Any halal chicken sold in supermarkets, chain restaurants...anywhere in fact where you're likely to be buying meat if you're not Muslim is pre-stunned and slaughtered exactly the same way as the chicken that isn't halal.

It isn't"

It is, you know.

I actually don't disagree that there is a problem with certain young men within Muslim communities in the UK/Western Europe that makes them vulnerable to radicalisation.

I've read a lot of people saying that they feel they can't discuss this because it's unPC or they get shouted down. I find the converse. I'd love to be able to have a sensible conversation about this but instead there's a lot of wild generalisations and ill-informed and offensive statements about Muslims. And objecting to this gets you called an out of touch lefty and the conversation doesn't happen.

crazy yes if you went there to learn how best to fucking murder people. Dont be so disingenuous.

"Cracking down" makes things worse, not better.

Absolutely.

The 'War on Terror' has categorically made things worse. What we're talking about here are the terrorist groups grown out of the wars in Iraq, Yemen and Syria, responding to US, Russian, Saudi and UK attacks and/or intervention. Their entire narrative is a polarisation of east and west, brown and white, Muslim and Christian, Shia and Sunni, jihadi and crusader, right and wrong, Them and Us. Anything that furthers this narrative is playing into their hands.

Honestly, this whole issue is so fraught, so complex and has such a long history, I'm aghast that anyone can believe there are simple solutions, let alone 'fair and just' ones.

Perhaps worth reading regarding halal:

"But contrary to what many assume, most animals killed by halal methods are stunned before slaughter. FSA estimates suggest that 88% of animals in the UK killed by halal methods were stunned beforehand in a way that many Muslims find religiously acceptable."

"In non-halal slaughterhouses, stunned animals are shackled and hoisted above the ground where a slaughterman "sticks" them, cutting their throat or inserting a chest stick close to the heart. Cattle and some sheep and pigs are stunned by a bolt through the brain before being killed.

Many poultry are now killed using gas. But they have traditionally been shackled, hung upside down on a production line, moved through electrified water to stun them, then conveyed to a mechanical neck cutter. In halal, however, they are killed by hand.

Muslims who oppose any stunning say their method remains the most humane and point out that a number of stunning methods have been banned as being bad for animal welfare."

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/08/what-does-halal-method-animal-slaughter-involve

Although what that has to do with terrorist attacks remains to be demonstrated.

"I've read a lot of people saying that they feel they can't discuss this because it's unPC or they get shouted down."

I know. I feel I am jumping up and down saying "Me, me,me-pick me! I want to discuss it!" while all around me people are saying nobody wants to discuss it because it's not PC.........

I posted this on another thread but it applies here to

You're right. They are deliberately targeted by Assad's henchmen

Where as the uk/us drone strike dont deliberately target children they just wipe out entire streets. We seem to like selling weapons to people who make this situation worse in the ME

In my opinion the rolling coverage of terrorist events should stop, were basically telling any crackpot terrorist organisation if you successfully do something we will give you the publicity you want that will encourage you to do more, I think we should have a self imposed ban, were we as a country stand up and say do this to use and we will deny you any publicity for this

We also need stricter control on recruiting sergeants for these terrorist organisations people like katie hopkins, nigel farage, ukip, britain first, bnp, the s*n, the mail, these people make already disenfranchised people feel like they are powerless and then people like ISIS (who I will now call goat fuckers international because fuck them) come along and say look how your own country hate you, look at the headlines about people just like you from the same part of the world as your family, we wont do that to you

The way I believe we should tackle this and I know this really isnt a popular view but we 'kill' them with kindness, society needs a change, a kinder way of being, imagine trying to recruit people who felt like they were excepted and valued members of this society, whether they were born here or came here as refugees, and gave them a safe place to grow their family, to work, for their children to play, to go to school or concerts.

How would we change this?

1. Id start by not selling arms to ME countries, you might be a refugee but 'we had no hand in doing that to you, come in.' Welcome those refugees who want to come to Britain, give them somewhere safe, even if there's a time limit before their circumstances are re-examined, and let them try and heal from what they've been through

1. Get rid of faith schools in their entirety and bring in free education across the board, its going to be a lot harder to recruit people who have a good education, a good job, healthcare, social care provision, a social security net underneath them.

1. Stop going out and on one side of your face praising the emergency services while on the other side knowing you are year on year cutting their funding and expecting them to do more, its no wonder were having to call in the military at times like this because she's cut the funding so hard.

1. Stop getting involved in wars that arent sanctioned by the UN

1. Stop rolling news coverage of attacks such as this.

Sorry its a rambly post and I'm sorry (really sorry because this ramble comes from a place of love for humanity) if there is anything in there that might have offended anyone

Another school day on here for 'this highly educated ' poster .Never heard of this phrase either.(Waiting for the snippy denigration of my education)
We had bigger fish to fry in a distant, different part of the world,so sue us.
Grim and vituperative thread...maybe people need to vent ...such a shock and sadness.

This is from The Guardian

"Salman and his brother Ismail worshipped at Didsbury mosque, where their father, who is known as Abu Ismail within the community, is a well-known figure."

“Abu Ismail will be terribly distraught. He was always very confrontational with jihadi ideology, and this Isis thing isn’t even jihad, it’s criminality. The family will be devastated.”

So, can we tell this father that he didn't do enough? That it's his fault?
Would this family deserve deportation?

This piece shows a community struggling within itself. A community that must find its own piece and balance.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/23/manchester-arena-attacker-named-salman-abedi-suicide-attack-ariana-grande

The way I believe we should tackle this and I know this really isnt a popular view but we 'kill' them with kindness"

I'm with you.

I posted similar on another thread, about another attack.

The animal may be stunned prior to having its throat cut. The UK Food Standards Agency figures from 2011 suggest that 84% of cattle, 81% of sheep and 88% of chickens slaughtered for halal meat were stunned before they died. Supermarkets selling halal products also report that all animals are stunned before they are slaughtered. Tesco, for example, says "the only difference between the halal meat it sells and other meat is that it was blessed as it was killed."[17] The British Veterinary Association, along with citizens who have assembled a petition with 100,000[18] signatures, have raised concerns regarding a proposed halal abattoir in Wales, in which animals are not to be stunned prior to killing.[19] Concerns about animal suffering from slaughter without prior stunning has resulted in the ban of slaughter of unstunned animals in Denmark, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland.[20][21] Generally, killing animals in Islam is only permissible for two main reasons, to be eaten[22] and to eliminate a danger, e.g. a rabid dog.[23]
According to Wiki

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/islamists-clear-want-just-arent-listening/

Why don't we ban it? 12-18% of animals being slaughtered without stunning is not what the original law stated until we amended for "religious reasons" and is way too high.

The British Veterinary Association and the RSPCA both wish to ban it
www.bva.co.uk/News-campaigns-and-policy/Newsroom/News-releases/BVA-calls-on-Government-to-end-non-stun-slaughter-on-day-of-Parliamentary-debate/

The reason we are talking about this is because we have allowed an erosion of our laws to accommodate religious beliefs, and that extends from relatively minor (depending on your view point) things like meat right to the discrimination of homosexuality and extends out to an acceptance that we allow people who want to kill us because of religious beliefs to be free on our streets.

Killing with kindness - explain how that works with someone brainwashed by extremist islam?

IfNot, you have raised an excellent point that if fundamentalist Christians did these attacks we would hope their leaders would speak out, as I would hope they have do so when terrorists have killed doctors providing terminations and blowing up family planning clinics in the US.
Islamic fundamentalism is a cult of death, pure and simple

Spot on JustanotherPoster00

"Why don't we ban it? 12-18% of animals being slaughtered without stunning is not what the original law stated until we amended for "religious reasons" and is way too high."

12-18% of animals where the meat is labelled as halal... and those animals have still got nothing to do with Nando's or supermarkets and don't need to be avoided, unless you're shopping in a halal butchers, you're not going to be consuming them.

The issue with the halal argument is that as soon as you move away from those animals that are unstunned and post links to organisations that complain about things like chocolate and talc being labelled halal... it stops looking like concern for animal welfare and starts looking like a whole other agenda.

I think Katie Hopkins is one of the few journalists to state what a lot of us think

Then a lot of you are rabid fucking fascists.

Just

I unfortunately can't open this.

CoolCarrie I do agree with that, yes.