What the actual fuck? - child maintenance

[Fieryfighter]

Hi, I've had barely any maintenance from my ex since we split, nothing for the past three years, he's had his own businesses etc and got nowhere with the CSA. One year he chucked me a few hundred a couple of times but nothing for ages. He's finally got what I thought was a paid job, according to my kids in the region of 60k, potentially up to 100k with commission. He's sorted a smart house, been going on to the kids about how they'll be able to get stuff/go places.

I then get a lengthy email today, which I'll paste here as I don't even know how to explain properly! I don't know quite how to deal and I'm scared if I do go to the Child maintenance service he'll manage to do as he says at the end of the message and I'll end up with a pittance if all he says us true.

So sorry for the lengthy post!! See below:

"My intention is to structure my employment in the same way that many consultants and trades people do when working for large organisations. I will set up a limited company and the organisation who I will be working for for the next six months will pay that limited company. That limited company will in turn pay me a wage to live on which will be at minimum wage level. So my gross income for the foreseeable future will be £300 per week made up for a 40 hour working week at minimum wage.

The CSA guidance is that at that level and with the new number of nights the boys are likely to be staying when we move I should begin to make a weekly contribution of £37 per week, less any variation I can claim for travel expenses relating to the boys (which will be extensive). I’m advised the variation would take the weekly payments to around the £30 mark. This would rise by about a fiver next year when DD would stop counting as a dependant – but that’s a full 12 months away.

However, I have always said that I will give you what I can afford over and above any legal obligation. For many years that has been random amounts, but I think it would be better for us both if that were to be formulised in to something more regular.

I would like to make this offer:

1. A weekly payment from me of £64. Paid each week via Paypal or BACS to your account on a regular day of your choosing.
2. I pay for everything the kids need. That includes clothes, shoes, uniforms, back to school stuff, music lessons, school trips, sports equpment etc

I further apologise that my employment status isn’t necessarily going to be nice and neat and easy from your point of view because I will be employed by a company of which I’m the sole Director, I’m sure you’d rather that wasn’t the case. But, the offer is honestly very fair and I mean it when I say that if I can afford to pay more on top of the offer then I will. I hope you take it as it’ll be so much better for you than the alternative. If you do not and my payments drop to £30ish a week to you and nothing else, then I’ll just spend the difference on the boys when they are in my town, but I worry this will open up a disparity between us from the boys point of view with me spending lots on them when they visit and you not affording to be able to. That’s not what I want."

Go through the CSM there are no guarantees that he will stick to his word at least with them you will get something regularly and they review each case at the end of the year so if he suddenly gets a big dividends payout they may well be able to add that to income he should pay from.
I get a fair bit more from the CSM as they work it out on % of income before deductions instead of disregarding a certain amount and after deductions like the CSA did.

What he is setting up is very common. The idea is to avoid paying as much tax, NI etc... as you only pay on yur wage, not on the dividends.

However, I would have though (or hope?) that the CSA would want to take into,account ALL his wages, so that means the dividends too.
The good thing is that, that email in effect explains very clearly that he WILL be paid with some dividends.
Would that work with the CSA??

I have to say I'm still wondering why maintenance is t calculated in whatever the parent is declaring the HMRC ....

"My intention is to structure my employment in the same way that many consultants and trades people do when working for large organisations. I will set up a limited company and the organisation who I will be working for for the next six months will pay that limited company"

This bit is interesting he is working for them for 6 months (long time for contractor) Does he have business premises ? Does he spend any money on advertising ? Does he have a business plan? Does he hire any staff who he sends to do work? Does he send invoices ? If not HMRC will be interested in him.

Im in exactly this position OP -X employed by his company on £12k a year & pays himself dividends or directors loan. I've had £900 to cover the last 10 months. CMS will confirm with HMRC but they are not quick and X is stalling and obstructing at every opportunity. I've said often on this site that I have been shafted and I tell my kids this. There is no way I am going to let them grow up thinking it is ok to treat people as X is treating me and this is after 20 years of marriage. The phones X bought the kids amount to more than £900. There is only one word that describes these "men" and it has been used on here already. They do not deserve to have any relationship with their kids when they are so obviously abusing them by abusing their mother. But they don't see it.

Yep, exactly what I was thinking. He sounds like a case study for IR35 crackdown.

I am afraid he might well get away with this. HMRC do accept many many thousands of directors contracting their services to companies. Whilst sometimes those directors should be treated as employed plenty have several different customers and it is lawful.

Secondly as people have said in a company he can if he wants have 5 employees - his 3 lovers say who are all working in the company and taking out a salary even so even if dividends were included for CSA purposes there may be no dividends.

So what is the practical solution? In my case I made sure I earned 10x my ex husband (he doesnt' pay a penny). I don't know why women are prepared to get involved with men who don't pay for their children. I have even had men showing off on first dates about how they have hidden money from their wives. Is that supposed to make me think they are nice men? It's weird.

However psychologically you have to think of the best way to get money out of him. He sounds happy to pay direct child costs. We had 5 sets of school fees. Sometimes paying for those goes down better with a non resident parent as indeed he suggests. Could you not just bump those up eg he could do an on line food order for the chidlren's food order each week and have it delivered. He could pay a nanny or child minder for them so you can work full time if you don't already (our child care cost £24k a year and I can see a non resident parent being happier to pay that direct rather than give an ex wife money so she can stay at home kind of thing).

Were you married? I suspect not so it is only child maintenance which is relevant.

No easy answers here.

Sorry X-Post my comment was in response to yellow

yellowox up until this emailtoday I thought it was just a normal paid job! All he's doing is selling office space!!

JanetBrown2015 yes we were married, but 10 years ago, he left when ds2 was 9months. I work of course but I'm in a v vet rural area so opportunities for better paid work are very scarce and moving isn't something I or the kids want to do. I always get by and kids don't go without but not always easy!

I'd never do anything with them but I have kept them!

never delete them. It's not the time yet to use them but it may be necessary soon.

In the meantime, I agree with finola

I would suggest 4 things.
1. Print off that email.
2. Make an appointment with a solicitor.
3. Do not reply to Mr Fuckwit in any way. No email, no text, no comment at hand over. Nothing. Even if he asks, be completely non plussed. Your lack of response will boil his piss.
4. Print off this thread then get it deleted. Just in case.

Don't respond at all. Don't show him your hand. Let him panic and wonder what you're going to do. If he is used to manipulating you as his email suggests then your lack of response will have him worried.

Get that solicitor ASAP. He thinks he is calling the shots. I bet he had a big smug grin on his face as he sent that email thinking he has played a blinder.

Meant to add, if solicitor says you have no real options other than A or B then sack the solicitor and go for the counter offer. Do your sums first and go in with a slightly higher figure than what will cover half their costs. if he haggles you need some wiggle room. No guarantees he will go for it. But then you always have the IR35 threat and the texts about his wife threat. If he still doesn't play ball then go for the £64 a week (of its still on the table) and report him to HMRC. I wouldn't actually send his wife those texts but the thought you might could be enough to make him co-operate.

And always remember, you are coming from a position of having nothing to lose because you currently get nothing and you know you can cope. (I've been there too, I know it's hard!) he is coming from a position of having potentially (as far as he knows!) a lot to lose.

ff, when you split up 10 years ago did the court make an order about money and finances or was their a court sealed consent order? The child maintenance (and indeed spousal maintenance) might be in that document and if he wants to change the figure he has to apply to court to vary it.

Secondly if you had no such order at the time then you can now apply to the court or agree with him details of the finances - if that is so then you might eg receive a higher share of the family home and other assets because he has made it clear he is going to put income beyond your reach. However you might well have dealt with the finances in a consent order 10 years ago,. Even if you did as I say above he will need to apply to vary that order.

If you did not settle the finances by consent order 10 years ago you might also now be able to claim 50% of the shares in his new company. So it is worth considering. Thsi is England. In scotland however divorce finances are calculated at date of separation not at date of the order as in England.

JanetBrown2015No there were no court orders about money at all, again on paper he had nothing (despite penniless brother mysteriously buying property in Spain etc).
Our family home actually got repossessed as I could no longer afford the payments and it didn't sell. I have actually been left owing the mortgage shortfall solely as he went bankrupt!

I have been well and truly shafted it has to be said

I couldn't face another court battle, the last one was so soul destroying

You have the most valuable asset, the DC. If you'd had to write a list of all the things you wanted out of divorce haveing the DC and your freedom from him would surely have come near top of the list.

You are providing, you have a roof and food on the table.

He was a shit then and is now but essentially you're free of that. The only hold he has is letting all this and the disparity in your circumstance to get to you. Don't give him that.

FWIW mine were 1 and 3. XH pays less maintenance now than the court calculated amount based on a part time role. I know his salary has doubled. The DC are happy, healthy and emotionally secure. My XH is a prize pratt for missing what really matters in life.

Ask him to explain it to your kids - "I've told them what was said in the e-mail but they are a bit confused as to why their dad doesn't seem to want them to have a nice comfortable life with mum. They're not sure which option we should go for"

Can I just point out, that if you go through the new CMS, they don't give a toss what he is earning now!!!!!!

They contact HMRC and look at what he received in the last full tax year and use that!!

FF actually it is to your advantage there were no court orders about money when you divorced as you could now apply for one which would entitle you probably to at least half the current assets of you both added together once debts are taken off. That includes 590% of the shares in his company probably if that is needed to ensure you have enough money to live and presumably the email he sent is good evidence that cash and shares etc now is more valuable to you than a future hope he might actually pay spousal and child maintenance.

Do you know what assets he has eg a house in his name, shares, savings, a pension?

Dear All. I am Self Employed and was advised by CMO (Child Maintenance Options) that Child Maintenance would be based on the Gross Profit of the Limited Company. Even those who are self employed via their own limited company are required to file a Self Assessment Tax Return each year. This will list all sources of income of the Sole Owner/Director such as; salary, dividends, bonus, etc. So should be easy to determine the total income of the Director.

Let the CMS sort it out. Don't give him headspace.

Even those Self Employed via their own Ltd Company will have to submit a Self Assessment Tax Return each year. On this the Director will be required to include details of all income. salary, dividends, bonus, etc. So should not be difficult to determine the Director's total income.

Looking at other websites and listening to those who have gone through a divorce I get the impression that many fathers try to minimize what they pay in Child Maintenance, not because they want to see the child disadvantaged, but because ex-wives refuse access to the children? Guess logic is "why pay for a child you don't see?" A valid point of view I think, but at moment not accepted by the courts.

You know what? I'd show your children this email. They sound old enough to know who their father is and it's not money he's keeping from you, it's money he's keeping from them. If there's a disparity in the life they have with you and with him, they deserve to know why.

My view is that while he is clearly avoiding, £250 a month plus extras in better than £0 a month so I would just accept it with the caveat that if he doesn't stick to it then you will take it further.

What he is setting up is very common. The idea is to avoid paying as much tax, NI etc... as you only pay on yur wage, not on the dividends.

Not the case anymore. Only the first £5k of dividends is tax free now. Accountancy costs usually outweigh the NI saving for sole directors.