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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Non Binary / Gender Neutral

952 replies

MissBax · 17/05/2017 08:21

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

OP posts:
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user1487175389 · 21/05/2017 10:49

As I said, it's because they're hipsters therefore wouldn't be seen dead with nail extensions etc a la Caitlyn Jenner

Bambambini · 21/05/2017 11:44

I didn't think Fox Fisher using "deviant" was his own view - just that mixing little kids up in the whole LGBT thing will give others outside who do think the community is deviant - more ammunition.

Might have to watch it again.

CricketRuntAndRashers · 21/05/2017 11:47

Bambam

Thing is, I don't think children should be seen as part of the LGBT community.

Bambambini · 21/05/2017 11:48

Although the way other people treat you in life has a lot to do with your genitals, it is very culture specific rather than scientific. Many MNers like me feel that gender is something which has been gradually imposed on them from childhood, but they don't feel it has any resonance with them today.

And this is why i can understand that our young are challenging societies restrictions and expectations of them and have decided not to play that game anymore. I just don't believe or buy all the many gender nonsense as being real and innate.

nauticant · 21/05/2017 11:54

Why do they choose to wear typically "feminine" or "masculine" clothes if non binary then?!

Leaving aside those with body dysmorphia who want to undergo total sex reassignment surgery, I think that many are having an identity crisis due to the stresses of modern life and choose the opposite gender as a way of profoundly rejecting their previous identity. In this context "non-binary" appears to be meaningless. I'm not saying that those claiming to be non-binary are not, but since a huge number of people who have never felt the need to have a major identity transition are non-binary to some respect, those announcing their non-binary status as something remarkable are a bit Emperor's New Clothes.

Bambambini · 21/05/2017 11:59

Cricket - i think that was Fox's point as well. Not to include young kids in the LGB side as it's not their sexuality that's being focused on.

CricketRuntAndRashers · 21/05/2017 12:02

Bambam

I intentionally wrote LGBT community. Kids of the age Fox was talking about shouldn't be in the LGBT imo.

Bambambini · 21/05/2017 12:08

No, i agree. I just think Fox has been misinterpreted a bit as regards the deviant comment.

HornyTortoise · 21/05/2017 12:46

I realise that the Breast is Best campaign may have been hurtful to women unable to breastfeed. But for god's sake, we are grown-ups.

I couldn't breastfeed. I wanted to so badly..I spent months on domperidone to try and up supply, was pumping all hours of the night, saw a lactation consultant. After months and months of nonestop pumping and medication I was making 3oz per day. So I gave in. Yes it was upsetting that I didn't manage. But it is pathetic to pretend that formula is the same as breastmilk just because a few people who couldn't breastfeed might get upset/offended. Sometimes in life, things don't work out how you want them to. Its just tough luck. Everyone else doesn't have to change their views and beliefs because you might chose to get offended.

Sorry for carrying on the derail anyway...I just felt like I had to have an input in this.

I think the derail looked a bit deliberate to be quite honest. When the 'biology is socially constructed' argument (rightly) fell flat on its face, we turn to formula feeding.

99.999999% of the population are 'non-binary'. 95%+ of people are 'trans' according to Stonewalls definition. Its all just a load of shit. Gender is a load of shit and just boxes to shove people into. And no I am not denying the existence of transsexual people by saying this as tends to be screamed at this point. But transsexuality and 'non-binary/transgender' are totally different things. the second is attention seeking bullshite. The first is a genuine condition that may be alleviated somewhat by surgeries or hormone treatment or social transition, but may also be helped by mental health specialists. The problem is when those who want to try the mental health route are denied this option because a bunch of guys with fetishes have campaigned to have this support taken away...

Bambambini · 21/05/2017 14:09

"I think the derail looked a bit deliberate to be quite honest. When the 'biology is socially constructed' argument (rightly) fell flat on its face, we turn to formula feeding. "

Yip, very strange.

CalmItKermitt · 21/05/2017 14:13

Fox and Owl. Ffs. Idiots.

Datun · 21/05/2017 17:00

HornyTortoise

I completely agree with your post. All of it.

Italiangreyhound · 21/05/2017 17:41

Bambambini yes. I agree that Fox meant it was wrong to talk about sex in relation to children. Does anyone remember Fox from channel 4s my big transgender summer?

Italiangreyhound · 21/05/2017 18:15

Sorry - Big transsexual summer

YouMayVeryWellThinkThat · 21/05/2017 20:44

"I think the derail looked a bit deliberate to be quite honest. When the 'biology is socially constructed' argument (rightly) fell flat on its face, we turn to formula feeding."

Yes I agree. It served the purpose of derailing and managed to minimise female biology at the same time.

I have been wondering, if agender is accepted as one of the possible gender identities, doesn't that kind of completely contradict this idea that we all have an innate gender identity? If I had a gun to my head and was forced to state my gender identity, I'd be going for agender, but wouldn't that make me deficient of something in genderland? Would I need a gender transplant?

PencilsInSpace · 21/05/2017 20:56

I dunno.

What Fox said was:

I was called up last week because there were a few articles in the press asking whether 3 was too young for a child to know who they are and say that they're trans, and I had to chat with a talk show host ... and the talk show host seemed actually very transphobic and she said straight out that she had children and she said that one of her boys had a phase where they were dressing in pink or tutus or something and they were 5 and she said 'well they just grow out of it, I just thought he might be gay but they grow out of it.' It reminds me of what one of the mums was saying here actually about gender and sexuality and that she feels, for the trans youth at least, that it doesn't help to have trans - the T - latched onto LGB, because when it comes to kids, I do believe, well obviously, for anyone, we're talking about gender, we're not talking about sexuality, and that kind of muddies the waters a little bit because people start to think that it's a deviant kind of thing.

A charitable interpretation would be that Fox was just saying we shouldn't talk about children and sexuality in the same sentence and that to do so has deviant connotations.

However, we know that the vast majority of gender dysphoric children, if not pushed down the trans route, do grow up to simply be gay or lesbian. The talk show host's thought process was not at all unreasonable and she was not being 'deviant' for wondering whether her son might grow up to be gay. I do think the transagenda is hugely homophobic in this regard. Transactivists are never willing to discuss the 80% of gender dysphoric children who might be spared harmful drugs, surgeries and infertility if we were more accepting that they might grow up to be feminine gay men or butch lesbians. Within that context, I'm feeling a lot less charitable than some of you about Fox's use of the word 'deviant'.

FWIW I think the waters are muddy as fuck between gender and sexuality in the trans agenda. We've got conversion therapy of children who would otherwise grow up to be gay, and young lesbian women who are pressured to transition, and we've got middle aged AGP men setting the agenda. I think it's more than a bit dishonest for transactivists to be constantly telling us there's no connection between trans and sexuality when there are all sorts of harmful connections between the two - especially as it was the T which sought to attach to the LGB and is now turning the whole movement into something homophobic, and especially lesbophobic.

Italiangreyhound · 21/05/2017 20:56

YouMayVeryWellThinkThat as it is all socially constructed people can literally make it up.

YouMayVeryWellThinkThat · 21/05/2017 22:24

Yes they can and do make it up but a common line I have heard is that gender roles and expression is socially constructed but gender identity is real. And I really shouldn't be looking for logic in the genderist position as they have so many conflicting arguments, but still I persist.

Italiangreyhound · 21/05/2017 23:29

Things that are socially constructed are still 'real'.

But you do need to accept 'gender' to accept 'gender identity'.

I don't accept it as relevant to me or innate but I see it is real to others.

Maybe in that sense it is like a religion?

Datun · 21/05/2017 23:54

But you do need to accept 'gender' to accept 'gender identity'.

Is it like the people who are transabled knowing they should have been born a paraplegic, but doing nothing about it. The knowledge is like the identity, but the cutting off of the limbs would be the expression.

Italiangreyhound · 22/05/2017 02:10

Datun I don't understand what you mean I mean it is 'real' for people who'buy into it'. That's all I mean.

Datun · 22/05/2017 08:20

Italiangreyhound

Yes, I know. Sorry, I wasn't disputing what you were saying.

I was just pointing out the people who give credence to a internal sense of gender, would dispute an internal sense of being a paraplegic.

People often accept that an internal sense of gender should be catered to and accommodated. On the basis of the fact that it feels 'real' to the person who has it. Right down to surgery and sterilisation.

But they would struggle to apply exactly the same mindset to someone who is convinced they are paraplegic.

sticklebrix · 22/05/2017 08:54

Maybe in that sense it is like a religion?

I think that religion is an excellent analogy Italian. People should be free to pursue their 'gender identity' if they choose but not to forcibly impose acceptance of the ideology on others. Certainly not using legal means.

YouMayVeryWellThinkThat · 22/05/2017 09:53

It is exactly like a religious belief and I'd be happy for it to be treated that way, where people have the freedom to express their religion but not to impose it on others.

I was just saying that many of those who believe gender identity is real and that everyone has one are also happy with the idea that some people are agender, and the two views are not compatible.

sticklebrix · 22/05/2017 12:40

Yes, that's a glaring inconsistency in the ideology, YouMayVeryWellThinkThat.

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