Non Binary / Gender Neutral

[MissBax]

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

Sorry to continue the derail, I don't want to but I have firm views that the bf debates must not enter into the gender debates in the way it did initially in this thread (murky memory!)

I realise that the Breast is Best campaign may have been hurtful to women unable to breastfeed. But for god's sake, we are grown-ups.

Most people who are hurt by that campaign, fully understand that them being unable to breastfeed cannot be used to form an argument against it!

I do agree, do not forget we are actually playing into the hands of formula companies here. There's a book called "The politics of breastfeeding " and it actually makes quite chilling reading. E.g. Maternity wards in the US being designed to make it harder for mums to bond with their baby and respond to feeding cues so developing their bf early on (the big room of babies separate to their mums we see in any blockbuster with a baby born in it).

Millions of babies would not be alive today if it weren't for formula. We did use to live more closely together and would have fed each other's babies or wet nursed. The very few who really can't feed need formula. But it's last on the list after bf, pumping and milk donation. Unfortunately there's a lot of money in the baby industry and formula is in our consciousness due to advertising (though strict, they get round it via follow on and growing up milks) as being completely equal if not favoured for ease.

The mums I know who really can't feed are grateful for formula. And it's good, better than it's ever been. There really should only be one brand though.

I know of two paediatricians, several HC workers and a lactation consultant who have blasted the fed is best campaign.

(Second and third paragraphs quoting Datun below, bold fail)

Pencil "Within that context, I'm feeling a lot less charitable than some of you about Fox's use of the word 'deviant'"

I guess it is possible either way. But Fox went on to say I identified as lesbian so implying being a lesbian was fine.

"“I spent most my life living as a lesbian and was proud of that. Because I do live as a man it doesn’t mean that I am straight, but a binary view of sexuality can feel very inhibiting and not very inclusive.”

I might not agree with loads of this trans stuff but I am just not sure Fox meant it was deviant to be a lesbian.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/fox-fisher/trans-dating_b_9080874.html

But pencil I do agree that... "I think it's more than a bit dishonest for transactivists to be constantly telling us there's no connection between trans and sexuality when there are all sorts of harmful connections between the two - especially as it was the T which sought to attach to the LGB and is now turning the whole movement into something homophobic, and especially lesbophobic."

Datun " I was just pointing out the people who give credence to a internal sense of gender, would dispute an internal sense of being a paraplegic."

Probably so. I think for some genuine trans people they are 'better off' socially being perceived as the sex they identify with, or the gender they identify with.

"People often accept that an internal sense of gender should be catered to and accommodated. On the basis of the fact that it feels 'real' to the person who has it. Right down to surgery and sterilisation."

Yes, I understand. In a way that we would not say to a person with anorexia, - "If it feels right for you, just go for it."

I do also feel that for some trans women who are genuinely disphoric, and are effeminate and attracted to men, that living their life presenting as a woman is possibly a lot better for them. They may well pass as 'female' and find life more accepting of them as trans women, going stealth. (A trans woman told me this, as a non-trans person I would have no idea what would feel better for a trans person but only what trans people have told me).

However, effeminate gay men are not very much welcomed generally in gay circles, or so I am told (again but a person who is an effeminate male). Where as a butch lesbian may well be welcomed in the lesbian community' (if such a community exists for them).

In this sense I do not think being a trans woman is a mental health issue like being anorexic or trans disabled. It's simply that living life this way is better for the person.

Lots of males currently identifying as trans women do not seem to fit into this pattern , or so it seems to me.

As far as trans men goes, again I think there may be some who would feel more comfortable to present as male but others who are just not happy to 'present' as female/be seen/recognised as female.

I do think there seems to be a quite big discrepancy in these things between those born male and those born female. Many females seem uncomfortable in their bodies where some trans women seem not.

Ekphrasis of course under normal circumstances breast is best, it's a liquid literally tailor made for you to survive the best. Only when a mum cannot produce enough (rare) or a baby cannot latch on (rare) or when a mother's milk may be contaminated by HIV or other conditions or by medication (such as when the mother is taking strong medication etc) will formula be best for a baby. We all know that.

I have two children, one a birth child breast fed, and the other adopted and I did not breast feed. I love them equally and hope their lives will be as healthy as possible. If a mum cannot or does not wish to breast feed then so be it. But there is no point trying to turn that into something it is not. In some parts of the world formula feeding is actually dangerous for babies!

www.babymilkaction.org/about-us

YouMayVeryWellThinkThat "I was just saying that many of those who believe gender identity is real and that everyone has one are also happy with the idea that some people are agender, and the two views are not compatible."

Totally agree. They are not. But they appear compatible because they use the same language!

Lots of people actually have this view of religions. They use the same sort of language so people assume we must all believe the same kind of thing. Religions all have different views about God and people. But they use the same language.

I think that language plays a huge part in all this.

What is the thing that appears to be discussed most often?

Pronouns. And actually not the pronouns you use of yourself but the pronouns others use of you. It is control isn't it. I will make you speak of me as I wish. Perhaps even think of me as I wish. Perhaps by people who feel a lack of control and a major dissatisfaction with the way life has turned out. This will not be true for everyone and again as I am not trans I have only got what I have read/heard to go on.

And even the word 'gender', did it not first refer to the sex of words in language!

Language identifies things doesn't it. I mean biology does too, of course, but we have 'refined' ourselves as people so we can be/appear in multiple ways.

I remember a doctor who was German once telling me how as a doctor he could work in lots of places, a kidney did not need you to speak English (he did clearly speak English or we would not have been having that conversation!). So biology doesn't necesarily need words. But we have engaged in lots of words to describe our 73 genders. It feels like a major complication of life.

So maybe agender people are accepted because they seem to buy into this by their need to identify as 'agender'. Again it is very much tied up in how you identify, so if someone identifies as agender they are in but someone who simply doesn't have a gender is not in?

I'd be much happier having to fill in a form with a question about gender belief rather than gender identity. It would be nice to state that I am female and I have 'no' gender belief, although obviously I am aware of the constraints a highly gendered world puts on me and not immune to influences.

Being gender critical is to me rather like being atheist, but one is much more accepted (in the UK at least) than the other. People sometimes seem to assume that being an atheist is in some way a faith position / belief which is odd, but much less intrusive somehow than being told I must 'identify as female'.

So maybe agender people are accepted because they seem to buy into this by their need to identify as 'agender'

Definition of agenger includes:

"Not knowing or not caring about gender, as an internal identity and/or as an external label."

gender.wikia.com/wiki/Agender

Which would suggest you can be agender without identifying as agender.

It does suggest that jelly, but in practice it seems to me that those who actively identify as agender are accepted by the genderists*, those such as me, who say they feel no inner sense of gender and do not identity as anything are called terfs.

*Although some transwomen (and possibly some transmen) are unhappy with the gender non-binary, agender etc stuff and do not accept it.

I think that being agender ("Not knowing or not caring about gender, as an internal identity and/or as an external label"

"why would it be any skin off your shit to refer to them the way they have requested? (As 'they', 'them'"

I would find this extremely difficult to do, because it is wrong (grammatically). Not all of us have flexible brains where disbelief can be suspended and wrong words used.

Also, there is the arrogance and entitled twattery of demanding that the whole world bend to your delusion. I couldn't give a shiny one if a woman thinks she is the Queen of Sheba but I'm not going to start calling her "Her Highness".

I've responded to people on twitter saying that feminism is fully behind people presenting however they wish regardless of their sex and haven't been believed confused

Same here, Jelly. Even on mumsnet. I have said that feminists would be completely happy for men to wear make-up and dresses and I've been told that's completely wrong.

Even after I explained.

I think this is a good summary of my position. (I didn't write it).

www.aroomofourown.org/the-sex-delusion/

YouMayVeryWellThinkThat

Yes, good article.

This debate rages online where people can say what they like, flounce, block, lie, etc.

I have yet to see a public debate where oxygen is pumped through the ideas.

Shutting people up, no platforming them, or deciding they are bigots from the get-go and and must ignored, certainly suggests to me there is a lack of conviction. Or a conviction that it is nothing but a belief.

Which is fine. Until you start making laws around it.

So terf can easily equal agender?
Interesting

So terf can easily equal agender?

I would say all feminists are agender but you could also be agender and not a feminist.

I think it's interesting how the gender-neutral debate has been aligned with the trans debate, because in my mind they are not the same and in many ways polar opposites.

Also, it's significant that the vast majority of those declaring themselves agender are biologically female (while in terms of transexuals mtf outnumber ftm quite substantially). I personally believe that being transexual is a rare medical condition that has unfortunately become a political point and social 'trend', and that 'agender' is more often a psychological response to patriarchal society: it's really shit to be female in so many ways, it's no wonder so many women who are otherwise comfortable with their biological sex are deciding to stop identifying with all the shit that comes with the label of "woman." And I think it's gotten worse, and that gender norms and stereotypes are being more rigidly enforced now than in recent past. There wasn't this tidal wave of pinkification in the 80s when I was little.

Italiangreyhound the quote you gave wasn't from Fisher, but from a friend of theirs.

ArcheryAnnie "Italiangreyhound the quote you gave wasn't from Fisher, but from a friend of theirs."

You are correct, my apologies.

Personally, I don't mind calling a trans person whatever name they choose or referring to them by a pronoun they choose. But I feel the language is actually used to confuse. As in male crimes being reported as being by a woman.

Tabasco I think it stems from the way trans ideology says that gender is something you feel or identify with.

Feminists have always used gender to refer to the set of roles, stereotypes and expectations that are imposed on women and men (and girls and boys) because of their sex - e.g. pinkification. No feminist ever 'identified' with that shit! It used to be far easier to reject gender, or examine it critically as the harmful social construct that it is, and still be (not identify as) a woman.

Now that understanding of gender seems to be disappearing. Gender has been reframed by trans ideology to be a kind of inner essence - something you feel, or that is a core part of your identity. It's no longer acceptable to be gender-rejecting or gender-critical. Instead you must identify as non-binary or gender-neutral. In so doing, it becomes impossible to critique gender at all - gender-neutral becomes just another identity and we must all be respectful of each others' identities.

It's no longer acceptable to be gender-rejecting or gender-critical.

Agender is gender rejecting Pencils, two of the descriptors:

"Not knowing or not caring about gender, as an internal identity and/or as an external label." and
"Identifying more as a person than any gender at all."

from
gender.wikia.com/wiki/Agender

No, that whole link is about 'identifying as' except for the wishy-washy 'not knowing or caring' and 'a statement of not having a gender identity' (but not challenging the notion of gender identity as a thing in the first place). There's nothing there about rejecting gender or being critical of gender as a concept or a social construct.

But by choosing not to identify as a gender you are rejecting gender.

I agree that it is on a personal rather than a societal level but it is still a rejection of gender.

Has anyone seen the story about the MET police officer who identifies as gender fluid so comes in some days as male, and others as female. I haven't got the link to hand but should be easy to find on Google.

No, it's saying 'I happen to not have a gender identity' (but I will of course respect yours and all the other 57 varieties because gender identity is a real thing)

C/W: 'I reject gender identity as a concept altogether. Gender is a social construct through which female humans as a class are subordinated to male humans as a class and it needs serious, ongoing critique and dismantling.'

It's a bit like when religious people frame atheism as just another belief system. Atheists don't believe they personally just happen not to have a soul that will survive death, but that other people do. They see no evidence that anybody has a soul. Nothing to do with belief or faith, just a total lack of evidence.

Anyway, gender critical feminists are not allowed to say they are agender. See here for example.

'Choosing not to identify as a gender' is interesting wording. Do you think people choose to identify (or not) as a gender? If that's the case, why do we all have to bend over backwards to accommodate trans and non-binary choices?