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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Non Binary / Gender Neutral

952 replies

MissBax · 17/05/2017 08:21

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

OP posts:
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16
Westray · 21/05/2017 08:11

I don't want men masquerading as women speaking on my behalf.

Orlantina · 21/05/2017 08:50

I've only seen pictures of Fox and Owl on TV.

One looks 'male' and the other looks 'female'. But which one is male and which one is female?

I look at the pictures and see someone who is a man and the other who is a woman - if you just were to look at clothes and appearance.

Non Binary / Gender Neutral
M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 21/05/2017 08:55

Two posts, one for each issue.

Re. Fed is Best - while I have no doubt that the founder is genuine in her motivations, I would love to know where the funding comes from, because the whole thing screams "astroturfing campaign" to me, especially the speed with which it seems to have gained traction among HCPs (Loop's acceptance of this as part of her midwifery course, for instance) despite the absence of any hard epidemiological evidence, and a wealth of evidence to the contrary.

(And I say that as someone who was in the 2% of women who, due to PCOS, genuinely struggle to produce enough milk and whose child genuinely was in the "fed is best" category - but we're rare, and relatively easily identified by a range of diagnostics from monitoring the state of the baby's fontanelle to doing heel prick blood tests - which is why DS was tube fed supplements while I established breast feeding).

user1487175389 · 21/05/2017 08:56

It doesn't really matter how someone looks. Xx is female, xy is male. Very very very rarely someone is androgen insensitive or intersex, but that's about it.

PencilsInSpace · 21/05/2017 08:57

Is that 'Fox' of mermaids fame who ?

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 21/05/2017 08:57

Oops - realised the other one was apropos of another thread and the issue was repeal of gaining sexual consent by deception laws... I'll go and post there.

Orlantina · 21/05/2017 08:59

It doesn't really matter how someone looks. Xx is female, xy is male. Very very very rarely someone is androgen insensitive or intersex, but that's about it

Doesn't it matter in the case of how you treat someone / think of someone when you see them at a glance - with respect to the question just asked before about bathrooms?

user1487175389 · 21/05/2017 09:14

I try to treat everyone equally regardless. When it comes to using the loo in public places, I think we have to look at protecting weaker and more vulnerable people in an enclosed space. The best way to do this is on the basis of biological sex. If I'm honest, I think Owl could easily have me in a fight, no problem, despite their frilly dresses and nice hair. Not saying they personally would pose a danger, but we have don'take laws on the basis of individuals - we have to have general rules that offer the greatest amount of safety to the greatest number of people who nay conceivably need it.

Orlantina · 21/05/2017 09:21

So Owl was born male, is wearing feminine clothes, but is non binary transgender.....

And Fox was born female, is wearing masculine clothes and is also non binary transgender....

Datun · 21/05/2017 09:23

When a western country like Canada has decided they can fine you $250,000 for misgendering someone and gender is entirely subjective, and can change hourly, you know something's gone badly wrong.

That's just for the non-binary, people.

In terms of trans people, they have actually legislated to force people to deny biology.

They have legislated to make it an offence to tell the truth.

Activists are notoriously militant. They will milk this at every opportunity. Forcing people to validate their identity, on pain of being reported.

The people for whom this is going to have the largest effect is women.

Their biological differences are paramount in the fight for equality and opportunity.

It's becoming minimised to the point of erasure.

Look at how loop not only disregards the evidence of her own commonsense, but decades of research.

I hadn't heard of the Fed is Best campaign. But it's bloody chilling.

I realise that the Breast is Best campaign may have been hurtful to women unable to breastfeed. But for god's sake, we are grown-ups.

Most people who are hurt by that campaign, fully understand that them being unable to breastfeed cannot be used to form an argument against it!

Women are being led through the nose into an arena where what they want and need is irrelevant.

And where voicing an objection has severe consequences.

CricketRuntAndRashers · 21/05/2017 09:25

Pencil

Yup... "Deviant".

But... I am a firm believer that the LGBTQIA community stands stronger together and I would never advocate for anything else.

Well, yes... But you still believe they're deviant. And probably wouldn't think twice about separating them if thought it was beneficial (for your group...)

Datun · 21/05/2017 09:32

Orlantina

They are just a regular heterosexual couple. Who like to wear the clothes of the opposite sex. It's not news, as far as I'm concerned.

And they are both reinforcing the binary, by dressing specifically as the opposite sex.

In the video clip with Piers Morgan, they were, as they so often are, banging on about having respect for their choices. Piers should respect their decision, whatever that is, it is how they feel, who they are, and he should respect that, however he feels.

Which, of course, it's not how the world works.

When he suggested that they respect his decision for identifying as a black, 5' 2" woman, they went silent.

Because, not only did they realise it is ridiculous, it would be construed as racist.

Whether you think it is racist or not, they were fully aware they would be vilified, and also it just shows that people do not respect others' choices if they don't agree with those choices.

Are we to respect the choices of a paedophile? Because he is being his authentic self?

Orlantina · 21/05/2017 09:35

They are just a regular heterosexual couple. Who like to wear the clothes of the opposite sex

That seems the crux of it.

Datun · 21/05/2017 09:37

PencilsInSpace

OMG that's Fox!!!? The one who called homosexuals deviant? The one that was waxing lyrical about a holiday camp for trans kids who made a slip up in his film clip?

Jesus.

Honestly, I think sometimes mumsnet knows more about all this stuff than anyone else.

Namechange1098 · 21/05/2017 09:48

What confuses me is that they both say they're non binary yet have had sex changes?!?! If they're non binary why have they chosen to live as the opposite sex?! Anyone...???

Datun · 21/05/2017 09:55

Today 09:48 Namechange1098

What confuses me is that they both say they're non binary yet have had sex changes?!?! If they're non binary why have they chosen to live as the opposite sex?! Anyone...???

I think the explanation you are struggling to reach is:

It's complete bollocks.

Datun · 21/05/2017 09:56

Plus, I'd be amazed if they have both had surgery. Particularly fox. Did they say they had? I thought they dodged it.

user1487175389 · 21/05/2017 09:57

Namechange its because they've 'gone hipster' or perhaps we're hipsters to start with. And everyone knows how hipsters reject binary gender identities in favour of woolly hats and hemp milk lattes.

CricketRuntAndRashers · 21/05/2017 09:58

Datun

Well, tbh. Sexual reassignement surgery for FTM's is rather awful and the results are... not really great. (or comparable to the options MTF's have.)

Namechange1098 · 21/05/2017 10:04

Datun - oh I'm not sure, I just assumed transgender meant sex change 😕 otherwise they're just a man in a dress and a women with short hair?

Datun · 21/05/2017 10:07

CricketRuntAndRashers

Yes, it's grim.

And Fox and Owl don't seem the type to have gone down that route. They've got the special snowflakery thing going on, not the full on trans thing.

Datun · 21/05/2017 10:09

Namechange1098

80% of transwomen retain their genitalia.

Transmen almost never have what they call 'bottom surgery'. At most, they have a double mastectomy.

The women's surgery has a high failure rate. It is no where near as refined as that of men (unsurprisingly).

CricketRuntAndRashers · 21/05/2017 10:16

Datun

I know. My favourite cousins is FTM.

In his case the top surgery and HRT was clearly the way to deal why extreme dysphoria. He doesn't want bottom surgery because he knows he'll never get what he wants anyway (a functioning penis).

But then again, I don't think he has a lot in common with "modern trans" people (despite being in his early 20ies himself). But I guess he's classically "transsexual".
He doesn't say he is trans because of his gender but because of his dysphoria. And transition seems to have been the best way to deal with this mental illness.

CricketRuntAndRashers · 21/05/2017 10:17

*cousin

not cousins. I only have one trans cousin....

Namechange1098 · 21/05/2017 10:17

Datun - ah ok thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Very odd the whole thing. Why do they choose to wear typically "feminine" or "masculine" clothes if non binary then?! Sorry, I feel like I'm missing something!