Non Binary / Gender Neutral

[MissBax]

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

If someone's behaviour is down to conditioning when growing up - how would that conditioning change if people aren't aware of someone's sex - so all the unconscious (and conscious) attitudes towards people go out of the window?

If someone is brought up with male privilege because people know he's a boy / man, what privilege do they have if they are non binary and no one really knows if they are male or female? And they see themselves as neither male or female?

The classic plays of ancient Greece are filled with gender. It'll have been around for thousands of years before that. If you're interested you can do your own research and read about gender roles in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Loopsdefruits "You need to know whether the manly looking woman is trans (so actually a man) so you can complain that she's in the women's bathroom/changing room/brownie unit, if we just let people live their lives and responded to actual problems rather than potential for problems, 9 times out of 10 everything would be fine."

This kind of shows you are not really up on the current thinking that a man is a woman just because he says so, because if you were you would know that despite it not being law that a man is a woman because they say so, and vice versa, some organisations will act as if it is.

So to be a girl in Girl Guides all you need to know is that you think you are a girl.

and

"Am I unusual to not regard every male person I come across as a potential threat? Should I be more concerned about my male friends?"

No, I do not think you are unusual. I do not regard every man with suspicion at all. But if I was on a bus or train late at night, or in a car park late at night etc, or even a deserted one in the day; I would be more aware if a person in the same vicinity was male or female. And I've fortunately never been attacked in such a place. So I can only imagine that many women may well be much more cautious than me.

I think trans woman in female prisons, who have transitioned to get out of a male jail, may well be a lot more of a risk than a male prison guard who is employed in a job with a pension etc.

And it is not just me who is concerned with male prisoners transitioning to get into female prisons. This is old, from 2015, but I think it has some weight.

British Association Of Gender Identity Specialists - written evidence | PDF version (PDF143 KB) is a letter to Maria Miller from Dr. James Barrett (President, British Association of Gender Identity Specialists) dated 20 August 2015.

The letter is ref TRA0149 and can be found at

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/women-and-equalities-committee/inquiries/parliament-2015/transgender-equality/publications/

Once you click on the web page you go to the bottom, it says "Written evidence",

and you need to click

“View all”

and then order by reference number to easily find ref TRA0149

One of the key bits to worry about in this long letter is about half way down where it says...

"...the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this."

You can read on if you wish, or I can post it here......

I do understand that someone may be uncomfortable with a trans woman in a bathroom, due to their own experiences with male violence, that's awful, but I don't think it's a reason to not allow trans women to use bathroom.

Noone expects transwomen to not use the bathroom. They expect males to use the male bathroom and females to use the female one. You know, because bathrooms and some other areas of life are separated by sex (not gender...) and contribute to female people being a bit safer in vulnerable situations. Not all males are predators, that I agree with. But as a class, they are undeniably a danger to female people.

Datun "But socially, I'm uncomfortable with not knowing.

I'm assuming that this slightly goes against the grain of feminism."

Agree with SylviaPoe, I am not sure why that goes against feminsim at all. I want men and women to be treated equally fairly, but because we do not all start out on that famous level playing fieldI do think it can be relevant to know if someone is male or female. It doesn't to me make that in any way unfemiminst.

The thing is that I can relate to loads of people on the internet not being sure if they are male or female. Likewise, in work I will get emails from peopel not knowing if they are male or female. I can relate perfectly well to them.

I can also be served in shops, and other situations, worship in church, do sports or social activties and not be bothered if the others are male or female. In the sport I pretend to do we spar with males and females, tall and short, big and small, so even though we will sometimes be put together with 'people the same size' we don't only train alongside other females. If that makes sense. It doesn't mean I think all sprots should be mixed. It just means mine is and I am fine with that.

westray "All higher primates display gendered behaviour." Do you mean 'gendered' of sex-based? If so (either way) what examples could you give, please?

If I am unaware of someone's sex I will treat them as male.

This issue, whilst worthy of discussion, affects how many again?

Just wondered at the fascination/interest in it.

I have never seen, encountered or witnessed a transgender person yet. Maybe that is because I never noticed nor cared.

The toilet thing is easily solved. Where I live most restaurants have non segregated loos. All cubicles. Works fine.

I don't see the problem.

Now admittedly I havent RTFT, so I may have missed out on many nuances. Apologies. I am sure I will be told off soon enough anyway for my lack of understanding of every nook and cranny associated with this rather (to me) very niche topic that seems to be turning into a humdinger.

What it is to be a woman affects at least 50% of people. It's the redefining of this that (if I understand correctly) concerns many of us.

It's quite true, that currently, this affects only a small number of people. Perhaps more in big cities.

But culture is changing. It is rushing ahead of legislation.

Self identification has already been approved in Canada, parts of the US, Ireland and others.

Maria Miller would like it to go through. But whether it does or whether it doesn't, society is assuming it already has, to a large extent.

It is already having something of a snowball effect.

Women are already concerned that they cannot challenge a man in
their space.

In addition to this, the very concept of being a woman has legally changed.

A woman only space can now be accessed by a man who identifies as a woman. Legally, he can only do it with a gender reassignment certificate. Culturally it's happening everywhere.

If I wanted to set up an official group for women only, I would be falling foul of discrimination law if I didn't allow a (legal) transwomen in, if they so wished.

Anyone who believes there are men who will not exploit this is naive.

On a personal level, I find it horrifying that my legal status as a woman can now be usurped.

When it comes to "intersectional" genderists it's always clear where their priorities lie. Not with women that's for sure.

@Datun

What effect has this had in the countries mentioned? Does anyone know?

I live in one of them, (for now) and I can honestly say it has passed me by. Or maybe it is early days. I dunno. But I don't see anything as dramatic as what has been posited for discussion here.

But surely transgender women can do the same thing and infiltrate men only spaces.

On a lighter note I think the non transgender men would be terrified.

I honestly think this is an issue that affects a tiny proportion of the population. Let's see how it pans out.

womanmeanssomething.com/violencedatabase/ °

acquilegiannie The website above has information on some of the effects that gender legalisation has had.

It will be a big issue at the next few Olympic Games!

Speaking of which, which side will the NB people be competing on?

acquilegiannie maybe it has not affected you personally. I think these things can affect very vulnerable women, those who might be in prison or in need of using a homeless hostel etc. For those of us who a
have our own homes and liberty the affect may be less of a problem.

"But surely transgender women can do the same thing and infiltrate men only spaces." 'Transgender women' are people born male who identify as women. They will be infultrating women only spaces, using your choice of word.

Trans men (who are born women) seem to be less publicly demanding about where they go, they seem to blend in better (in my mind) a short man is less noticeable than a very tall women and if they are taking Testosterone they may grow facial hair which can make them (to my mind) look very masculine.

"On a lighter note I think the non transgender men would be terrified." What do you think the men would be terrified of? They don't get shit for not being attracted to trans women (if they are not). They might get shit from other men for their choice of partner if they are attracted to trans women. I watched a terrible and harrowing film about an American soldier in a relationship with a trans woman. The film is called 'Soldiers Girl' and is very sad. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldier%27s_Girl

"I honestly think this is an issue that affects a tiny proportion of the population. Let's see how it pans out."

It potentially affects us all. because the activists believe there is no difference between a woman, and a man who thinks they are a woman. They don't need to change their body, clothes, voice, nothing at all, they just have to believe in their mind that they are really a woman. So what does it mean to be a woman?

acquilegiannie

There is a huge controversy in the US and Canada at the moment.

The Canadians are just passing a bill now - dubbed The bathroom bill.

Professor Jordan Peterson at the University of Toronto is one of the people who is making a stand. Misgendering is a crime there, punishable by a fine of $250,000. Peterson said if he was arrested, he will not pay the fine and he will go to prison as he is an advocate of free speech.

Free speech is often misinterpreted. It means the government cannot legislate in order to stop you saying something. It is specific to the authority of government, not individuals to one another.

Peterson was assaulted by his own students.

www.google.co.uk/amp/thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/civil-rights/301661-this-canadian-prof-defied-sjw-on-gender-pronouns-and-has-a%3Famp

The actual assault is audio only.

This link shows him speaking to students.

I think my concerns are that a tiny proportion of the population anywhere really can dictate the rules now.

That is not right from either male or female transgender folk.

Such a small proportion, where did this all come from? And many places/countries still do not support same sex marriages. But I know that is a different issue. Still.

I am flummoxed TBH by it all.

acquilegiannie you are right "I think my concerns are that a tiny proportion of the population anywhere really can dictate the rules now."

If you want to have your mind blown, and not in a good way, take a look at this...

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stefonknee-wolschtt-transgender-father-leaves-family-in-toronto-to-start-new-life-as-a-six-year-old-a6769051.html

I've got to say that I have a lot of sympathy for genuine trans women and men, and I treat all trans people that I meet with politeness and kindness, as I expect we all pretty much do.

I remember the day someone tried to tell me that there was no difference between a trans woman and a woman, and right then I think I knew that this had the potential to screw with women. Genuine transsexuals are, I think, quite scared because this is a lot of attention they do not want.

If formula feeding is so perfect, how come we're seeing so much cows milk protein intolerance and allergy in babies?

Honestly, the way things are going at the moment one daren't make a comment on anything or anyone for fear of homophobia, racism, transgerderism etc.

The majority or many, I don't know the stats, are verbally and otherwise strangled now, and that is not right either. There has to be a balance somehow here IMV.

@Italiangreyhound.

Thanks for links

I think my concerns are that a tiny proportion of the population anywhere really can dictate the rules now.

That's exactly how I feel acquilegiannie.

Someone cleverer then me will have more of an academic viewpoint. But I can't help feeling that the individual has taken precedence over the group/society.

It's all about who someone is and not what they do. You must respect me because of who I am, irrespective whether I am decent, kind, smart. I don't have to be a philanthropist, an inventor or a saint. I must be respected, no matter what.

In my day if someone said you don't respect me, the consensus answer would be, well what have you done to earn it?

Respect was not a right. It was conferred on somebody by virtue of their deeds.

And of course, it still is. You might pretend to respect somebody, because they demand it, but you can't force someone to respect you, internally, in their head.

And it is followed through with the trans-ideology rhetoric and gender identity politics. If you don't use the right pronouns, it is literal violence.

99.7% of the population identify as the gender they are assigned at birth without any problems or mental health issues relating to it.

Also where does it stop? Gender fluidity? You can be male one week, non-binary another week and a male to female transgendered woman the next.

They are mentally ill people and should be treated as such. Their feelings or problems should not be disregarded but forcing 99.7% of the population down the very slippery road of policing speech is absolute lunacy.

ayyylmao No one is 'assigned a gender at birth'! That phrase has crept into the language from the stories of intersex people being' assigned' one sex or the other, when health care staff were unable to determine it exactly.

The rest of us are simply Correctly Identified as the biological sex male or female.

Gender is a mish mash of externally imposed ideas which slowly filter through to influence an individual's personality to a greater or lesser extent. Although the way other people treat you in life has a lot to do with your genitals, it is very culture specific rather than scientific. Many MNers like me feel that gender is something which has been gradually imposed on them from childhood, but they don't feel it has any resonance with them today.

Excellent post pencils.

The fed is best campaign has been proven to be damaging and erroneous. Look up Dr Jack Newman's extensive writing on this, especially on his fb. A Canadian peadiatrican and breast feeding expert (in terms of the practical logistical science and how to support earthly newborn feeding issues.) he's written specifically on the weight loss issue and that particular campaign's misleading ideas.