Non Binary / Gender Neutral

[MissBax]

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

I do see your point, but it's not 'heteronormative' as 'parents' doesn't mean biological man and woman parents? Parents are just those with legal parental rights over a child, this can be bio parents, or adoptive, same-sex parents etc... if anything maternity and paternity are more heteronormative (and unfair, as paternity leave isn't equal to maternity leave, and a single father would struggle to get equal amounts of time off/pay to care for a baby)

Maternity leave isn't heteronormative.

Mothers give birth. That has nothing to do with heteronormativity.

Paternity leave is as heteronormative as parental leave, yes.

ha at the idea that single mothers have that much help from their own mums! I wish!

Loops well that beats my proud B at GCSE anyhow. It was fun though - the teacher was a riot, and clearly loved her subject.

Parental leave and paternity leave are based on the notion of a nuclear family, which is a heteronormative idea.

Giving people leave on that basis gives them a financial benefit not available to people who do not live in nuclear families.

'ha at the idea that single mothers have that much help from their own mums! I wish! '

I based my statement on studies showing single mothers are more likely to share care with grandparents than former partners, not your personal experience.

Pretty sure sociology teachers are all a bit crazy, but it's great :D sylvia what about same-sex partners, should they both get mat leave if they are both women? Is the other mother not a mother because she hasn't given birth?

Gay men? Not deserving of the same amount of leave as a woman who has just given birth? Even though they have to care for that baby.

I'd like you to explain how "leave for parents" is heteronormative? How does having "parental leave" that refers to any and all new parents and can be split how those individuals see fit, contribute to the belief that heterosexuality is the norm and that women are the primary care-givers?

Sharing parenting leave equally can undermine breastfeeding.

Women are better biologically equipped to nurture babies.

'I'd like you to explain how "leave for parents" is heteronormative? How does having "parental leave" that refers to any and all new parents and can be split how those individuals see fit, contribute to the belief that heterosexuality is the norm and that women are the primary care-givers?'

Because assuming parents care for children (regardless of their sex) is a belief based on marriage and nuclear family as the norm, which is heteronormative.

'sylvia what about same-sex partners, should they both get mat leave if they are both women? Is the other mother not a mother because she hasn't given birth?'

The woman who gives birth is entitled to maternity leave to recover from the birth. Who she then shares child care with is up to her. If she wishes to share further paid leave with her female partner, then she should be able to do so.

Gay men? Not deserving of the same amount of leave as a woman who has just given birth? Even though they have to care for that baby.

Gay men can acquire a baby to be the primary carers of by the following means:

1. Surrogacy. Legally the maternity leave goes to the surrogate. As she will have had the baby for compassionate reasons, she will no doubt also want to transfer some leave to the couple in question, but have some for her own recovery.

1. Adoption - a wholly separate form of leave legally anyway, not shared with birth mother.

Westray explain? Side note, breastfeeding isn't actually all that important, not in the UK (where we have access to clean water and quality formula milk). Again, it's not about MAKING people share the leave, it's about them having the option, or should we make everyone breastfeed even if they don't want to?

sylvia ok, I think I get what you mean! So like, call it maternity leave, and then allow the mother to share it with a named person/people if she wishes?

So 'scrap' paternity leave and just have it all come under one umbrella of 'maternity' leave?

All the situations you mention are covered by the simple leave system I have put forward:

The mother has maternity leave to recover, and she can then name any other carer as a person she wants to share paid leave with, or even more than one person.

That would include all straight and gay couples, as well as somebody like me who shared childcare with my sister, and people I know who've shared childcare with friends, or other family members.

Pencils brilliantly informative post.... and Datun excellent posts as ever.

I don't know what we should call it, but I'm sure a suitable name could be thought of!

Yep I understand :) basically we want the same thing, but I don't think it should be called 'maternity' leave, but essentially we're arguing over terms rather than like...actual 'things' lol

Isn't the whole idea of shared parental leave to encourage the other parent to take time off work which then leads into more sharing of childcare as the children get older and both parents do a mixture of childcare and work?

Which comes back to gender roles and the non binary discussion.

Side note, breastfeeding isn't actually all that important, not in the UK (where we have access to clean water and quality formula milk)

I don't agree.

Yes, as long as it is understand that whatever this leave is called always includes the birth mother.

And try starting a thread on here saying breastfeeding isn't that important. You'll get your arse handed to you.

Breastfeeding is legally protected. You should maybe consider that in your whole intersectionality thing. Maternity is a legally protected characteristic, including pregnancy, early motherhood and breastfeeding, under the equality act, just like sexual orientation, race, disability etc.

I don't agree either. It is for many and for the baby too. But I must say I know of a sahd who brought baby to mum to feed every 4 hours when she went back to work around 5 - 6 mo. She is a (PhD) Dr of nutrition.

'Isn't the whole idea of shared parental leave to encourage the other parent to take time off work which then leads into more sharing of childcare as the children get older and both parents do a mixture of childcare and work?

Which comes back to gender roles and the non binary discussion'

Yes, absolutely. It assumes the gender roles are that there are two parents who must get together and raise a child together, despite this not actually being the situation most families are in!

It's all about making it a moral component of a woman's pregnancy that she has a romantic partner around to be dependent upon for either economic support or childcare.

Breastfeeding is great, and if people wish to do it, great. But studies do not support the claims that it is important, and a lot of the breastfeeding info provided to new parents is wrong or downright dangerous. Fed is best, breastfeeding is fine, formula is fine. Breastfeeding prevents a tiny proportion of colds/stomach upsets compared to FF but only when looking at the entire population. BF has a much higher failure rate than women are told, and babies are starving to death because of incorrect information from poorly trained health professionals.

You can disagree, but you'd need recent and high quality research to back up your claims.

This obviously is different in countries where water is not safe, or formula is not easy to access.

Loops, why don't you start a totally different thread about that?

Given the advice of both the government and the WHO, and the laws we have in this country, the onus is on you to demonstrate your disagreement with expert advice based on the literature by providing evidence.

Enough with the breastfeeding isn't important bollocks, loops, really.
That is unadulterated shite, and makes you sound exceedingly foolish.

You don't think it should be called maternity leave. You don't think breastfeeding is important. That's a big important chunk of female labour you're seeking to invisibilise and trivialise! Why would you want to do that?

But studies do not support the claims that it is important,

That's simply not true.

Propaganda by men in stuffed suits trying to turn infant feeding into a financial commodity.

And women swallow it.

Breastfeeding is a feminist issue.

Sorry to derail.