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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Non Binary / Gender Neutral

952 replies

MissBax · 17/05/2017 08:21

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

OP posts:
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Ktown · 20/05/2017 09:22

I agree you didn't say that.
But that cut paste you added was hardly helpful. It mixes humans and flatworms. No wonder the kids are confused with information like that.
You are super important to teaching our kids actual facts about sex.

PencilsInSpace · 20/05/2017 09:23

SnapAttack - I put my hands up and say I know very very little about this area and would like to know more and understand it better

Well then quit with the 'I am a biology teacher' appeals to authority.

First of all, in a sexual species, you can have females be XX and males be X (insects)

But we are not insects ...

you can have females be ZW and males be ZZ (birds)

... neither are we birds ...

you can have females be females because they developed in a warm environment and males be males because they developed in a cool environment (reptiles)

... or reptiles ...

you can have females be females because they lost a penis sword fighting contest (some flatworms)

... or fucking flatforms ...

you can have males be males because they were born female, but changed sexes because the only male in their group died (parrotfish and clownfish)

... or fish FFS!

you can have males look and act like females because they are trying to get close enough to actual females to mate with them (cuttlefish, bluegills, others)

Still not fish.

or you can be one of thousands of sexes (slime mold, some mushrooms.)

Now you're just being silly.

Oh, did you mean humans?

YES! (but mammals as a group will do.)

Oh ok then. You can be male because you were born female, but you have 5-alphareductase deficiency and so you grew a penis at age 12.

A rare disorder of sexual development (Intersex condition) Most affected individuals are unable to have biological children without assisted reproduction.

You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but you are insensitive to androgens, and so you have a female body.

A rather more common disorder of sexual development (Intersex condition). People with AIS are not fertile.

You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but your Y is missing the SRY gene, and so you have a female body.

Swyer syndrome is another disorder of sexual development (Intersex condition). Individuals with this condition are infertile. They have undeveloped gonads which are usually removed because they have a tendency to become cancerous. Swyer syndrome may also occur along with health conditions such as nerve problems (neuropathy) or as part of a syndrome such as campomelic dysplasia, which causes severe skeletal abnormalities.

You can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but one of your X's HAS an SRY gene, and so you have a male body.

Male XX syndrome is a disorder of sexual development (Intersex condition). At puberty, most affected individuals require treatment with the male sex hormone testosterone to induce development of male secondary sex characteristics such as facial hair and deepening of the voice (masculinization). Hormone treatment can also help prevent breast enlargement (gynecomastia). Adults with this disorder are usually shorter than average for males and are unable to have children (infertile).

You can be male because you have two X chromosomes- but also a Y

Klinefelter syndrome is a disorder of sexual development (Intersex condition). The primary feature is infertility. Children with Klinefelter syndrome may have learning disabilities and delayed speech and language development.

You can be female because you have only one X chromosome at all

Turner syndrome is a disorder of sexual development (Intersex condition). It causes infertility and a whole host of physical complications. Girls and women with Turner syndrome will need to have regular health checks of their heart, kidneys and reproductive system throughout their lives ... Life expectancy is slightly reduced, but it can be improved with regular health checks to identify and treat potential problems at an early stage.

And you can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but your heart and brain are male. And vice - effing - versa.

This is not a disorder of sexual development, it is gender bullshit. Intersex people have requested that they are left out of discussions around trans:

Intersexuality is not the same as a transsexuality (gender dysphoria) and is not a transgender state. Neither of the latter terms is one that we recognise as belonging in any general discussion of intersex. We are not happy with the recent tendency of some trans groups/people to promote transgender as an umbrella term to encompass, for example, transsexuality, transvestitism and intersex. We object to other organisations/individuals putting us in categories without consulting us, especially categories that imply that interexed people, of necessity, have gender identity issues.

Bambambini · 20/05/2017 09:25

Technically I think women can ejaculate. I remember that being pointed out to the lecturer in one of my criminal law lectures (he said that a fetish could only be me because a fetish means something that makes you ejaculate, and only men can ejaculate). His face when several female students said that it was definitely possible:shockblush

Of course women can ejaculate, those with penises anyway. Maybe that's what the students were referring to.

MissBax · 20/05/2017 09:27

Of course women can ejaculate, those with penises anyway. Maybe that's what the students were referring to. 😂 ha! Brilliant!

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 20/05/2017 09:31

I am really interested to know from people who are pro sexual equality how best to address talking to young people about it.

Transgender Trend are putting together a set of resources for use in schools.

SnapAttack · 20/05/2017 09:35

Haha oh dear pencils ktown sorry you have totally.misinterpreted what I said.

I said I am.a.biology teacher and therefore I get exposed to a lot if questions and also a of people just saying it's black and white
.. from the chromosome thing to the gender aspect too. Some teachers saying it's the same thing . I get asked about it by non science teachers teaching pshe lessons and like I have said.. its no my specialism either! I wasnt decalring mtself an expert haha. Bear in mind I teach 11 to 18 year olds so the detail we have to cover extends to sperm and egg > zygote > embryo --> foetus etc

I learnt more about this debate in psychology

Thanks though for all the responses to that post. I know about most of those chdomosomal conditions and the impacts they have on development amd fertility but you're right.. its not obvious if you don't know and maybe suggests lots of people just have this. I won't share it again!

So.tips.on a postcard please for how teachers can do better when discussing this to students?

SnapAttack · 20/05/2017 09:36

Thanks pencils I will have a look at that

Ktown · 20/05/2017 09:41

Stick to facts not opinion
You don't need opinion here
Avoid using the word gender as it doesn't have a universal definition
You have males females and intersex humans
This has nought to do with transgender
Psychology is an imperfect science and has been really detrimental to these discussions - my opinion ☺️
My questions to you are: what is the definition of a woman?
Why are schools teaching sexist stereotypes?
What is wrong with men in skirts?

SnapAttack · 20/05/2017 09:49
  1. Good question.. I don't wish to get flayed for saying the wrong thing here so I am not going to attempt to answer it! What would you answer be?
  1. Ignorance and lack of time to prep and research properly before delivering lessons about it. For pshe sometimes these are organised centrally and only get do tribute to teachers a few days before so we either use the pre provided materials which are often shocking or try and cram some reserve time ourselves. Its not ideal and is am issue.
  1. Nothing.
Bambambini · 20/05/2017 10:41

So are teachers expexted to speak or teach about these issues, is there an agreed narrative or are they allowed to tackle it in the way they see fit?

I can see there might be a need to discuss these issues with children but what is the content? Seems there are groups (like Fox Fishers) who put together material for schools and sometimes go into schools to deliver it. Are parents informed of what the content is?

Datun · 20/05/2017 11:04

Re female ejaculation.

"However, the other two women produced a fluid which contained a natural chemical called prostate-specific antigen (PSA). This indicates that it probably came from structures called Skene's glands – which are rather like the female equivalent of the male's prostate. They are very tiny structures, located near the opening of the urethra (the urinary pipe)."

Unsurprisingly, there is very little research into this.

Datun · 20/05/2017 11:12

SnapAttack

What is the actual title of the lesson you're supposed to deliver?

Kids are getting utterly confused at the moment. They are being told it is possible to change sex. Number one, it isn't. Number two the end result of that route is permanent sterility.

You may not be able to force an agenda of your own. But, at the very least, you could stick to facts, not opinions, not pseudoscience.

If you are talking about gender, as a previous poster said, the definition of gender changes all the time. But it always links to a male brain and a female brain. Something that is not supported by science and is highly detrimental to both women and children.

You could get them to suggest stereotypical roles that men and women do. And ask them why they think those roles are designated to one sex or the other.

Especially for the older children, it will get them to question any bias and also force them to justify why they think that.

It will, in the end, show that the only roles that can justifiably be ascribed to one sex or the other are those that involve biology.

You might also take one child from each sex to monitor the responses. How many times a boy answers, how many times a girl answers. Whether one sex tries to speak over the other. You might find gender bias in action!

Terfing · 20/05/2017 11:29

Btw, @SnapAttack and @Loopsdefruits, I am finding your posts very transphobic.

And given that I am transgender, according to Stonewall, you should be more respectful! Angry

Iggi999 · 20/05/2017 11:32

Maybe the way forward is for everyone to identify as non-binary. The system would implode. According to these definitions most feminists are non binary so no lie is involved.

Iggi999 · 20/05/2017 11:36

So just to confirm, in human biology terms, there are males, females, and intersex people. Am I missing something here? My head got a bit turned with thoughts of worms and mushrooms.

Faceicle · 20/05/2017 12:16

Well quite Iggi. We are all unhappy about being defined in what we can do or have as members of a specific gender. It is being mature enough to know (as wisely stated up thread) that one can not identify out of being discriminated against alongside a distaste for being labelled as identifying (and therefore supporting?) with horribly restrictve gender stereotypes that leads me to discount this theory entirely.

Datun · 20/05/2017 12:37

Faceicle

I totally agree. It is a political movement.

Women have, for years, shared their bathrooms with transsexuals, without a single problem. As a courtesy.

Men with gender dysphoria find that presenting as female alleviates the symptoms.

How the hell we have gone from that to being expected to view the penis as a female organ and that sex differences are immaterial?

Quite apart from the feminist viewpoint and how it is detrimental to women, it's clearly ludicrous.

I know the emperor's new clothes is often invoked, but it really is like that.

If sex is immaterial, what happens when two men decide to make a baby? Or when my husband and I were trying to conceive, should we have had a conversation to decide who was to carry the fetus?

Everyone knows that sex and gender are two different things. Everyone. And trying to pretend that it is gender self identification that makes the world go round ignores the practice and behaviour of every single man and woman on the planet.

Italiangreyhound · 20/05/2017 12:51

snap "About issues like grooming, consent, alcohol abuse, eating disorders. Most teachers will have to throw something together in 10 minutes or so"

So in your school lessons on life changing 'experiences' such as consent and grooming are being thrown together in 10 minutes! Do the parents know?

user1487175389 · 20/05/2017 13:17

I had this idea, I don't in know what you lot would think of it: basically a questionnaire MN could pin at the top of the site asking simple, neutral questions on sex and gender. For example:

1)What is your biological sex?

2)Do you feel the concept of gender has relevance to you personally?

2)b, if you answered yes to the above, please indicate on this scale whether you feel gender is something that was externally imposed on you by others, or something arising naturally in you?

3)Is the idea of gender essential to your own personal identity? (Scale of 0-5)

4)What do you understand the distinction between biological sex and gender to be?

The idea is to try to build up a picture of how contemporary women feel about sex and gender. I'm not sure how useful any of those questions are, but if you think it's a good idea, but I'm sure you'll let me know of some better ones. It would then give us some concrete data to fight the good fight (or maybe not, I don't want to prejudge the results, if my GCSE in Sociology taught me anything! - Do they still teach sociology in secondary schools btw?!)

Loopsdefruits · 20/05/2017 13:38

lancelottie yes, but I think having super 'strict' maternity leave and paternity leave is not all that inclusive to people e.g. who are adopting, or if something awful happens and the mother dies and the father has to raise the new baby alone. Also the assumption that if a pregnant woman has to take mat leave early, due to health problems or whatever reason, the partner can't also have some of that time too to be a support person. I think we are fortunate in the UK to have good maternity and paternity leave, but it's not good enough and also assumes that the person giving birth is going to be the primary care giver.

I did say that mat leave should be offered to anyone who is pregnant and wants it, regardless on whether they ID as a woman, man, unicorn, neither or other. They are pregnant, they require care, they will give birth in some way, they need to have leave to do that. But I don't see the harm in calling it 'parental leave' and it being more flexible.

Pretty sure some Scandinavian countries offer that

Loopsdefruits · 20/05/2017 13:40

user I did sociology A-Level :D (got an A, was proud lol) wasn't offered to us at GCSE, and not sure if they still offer it :/

SylviaPoe · 20/05/2017 14:32

'But I don't see the harm in calling it 'parental leave' and it being more flexible.'

Because it is heteronormative and assumes that care is given by parents, when in the case of UK single mothers, for example, care is more likely to be shared between the mother and the grandparents than between the mother and the mother's former partner.

Orlantina · 20/05/2017 14:37

If it was called 'baby leave', would that be better?

Loopsdefruits · 20/05/2017 14:41

You think parental leave is more heteronormative than 'maternity' and 'paternity'? I guess baby leave or child rearing leave then :P

SylviaPoe · 20/05/2017 14:43

I'm not sure what the best name for it would be. There are other countries where the leave can be transferred from the mother to another carer she names. They must have a name.

It shouldn't include adoption leave, as that's a totally separate issue to maternity leave, usually involving older children.

In the case of surrogacy it is still the mother who gets the leave. As commercial surrogacy is illegal in the UK, she could still transfer some of her leave to whoever she had the child for.

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