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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Non Binary / Gender Neutral

952 replies

MissBax · 17/05/2017 08:21

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

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user1487175389 · 19/05/2017 23:34

Grrrr Angry

What frustrates me the most is that these people are so near to, but yet so far from the ideals of liberation feminists have been arguing for for centuries.

sticklebrix · 19/05/2017 23:46

YY user.

I definitely think that there is a generational aspect to the gender ID movement. It will be interesting to see how things pan out in 10-15 years time. Many of today's women students will be in the middle of childrearing and watching men's (male people, not ID as male) careers soar all around them and the patriarchy proceeding as normal. Maybe the ideals of liberation feminists won't seem so silly after all at that point.

SnapAttack · 20/05/2017 00:13

I am a biology teacher. It frustrates me when people say sex is black and white... either xx or xy. Its really not that simple .

Non Binary / Gender Neutral
jellyfrizz · 20/05/2017 00:31

Really Snap? Fungi aren't even in the same kingdom as humans. That's like comparing humans with plants.

SnapAttack · 20/05/2017 01:27

You obviously didn't read it all. It focuses on humans later down for those unable to comprehend the concept of evolution

SylviaPoe · 20/05/2017 01:30

'Sylvia Sure, if that's how they want to ID, but that shouldn't legitimise the idea that asexuals are straight. '

Straight includes people who are exclusively romantically and/or sexually attracted to the opposite sex. It does not include people who are neither of those things.

Gay includes people who are exclusively romantically and/or sexually attracted to the same sex. It does not include people who are neither of those things.

Gay marriage refers only to people who wish to form a same sex romantic relationship. If someone wishes to enter into a legally recognised romantic same sex relationship, it doesn't matter if that person is also black, disabled or any other thing. That is not what it describes. It describes a marriage between two people of the same sex.

So same sex relationships homo (meaning same) sexual (meaning pertaining to a organism's sex) - homosexual, informally gay.

And hetero (meaning different) sexual (meaning pertaining to an organism's sex) - heterosexual, informally straight.

Bardolino · 20/05/2017 01:38

Oh dear God, that bloody biology post again. Can somebody please explain to me the biological reasoning behind the statement "And you can be male because you have two X chromosomes but your heart and brain are male. And vice - effing - versa". Because that wasn't covered in my school or university biology classes.

Bardolino · 20/05/2017 01:47

Marisa - But the bottom line I think is that you see sex as purely biological, which I don't. Or rather, I would say that sex may indeed be 'purely' biological, but we as humans have no purely biological way of experiencing it.

Except we do, in the whole process of reproduction: periods, pregnancy etc are purely restricted to females; erections, ejaculation etc are restricted to males. Any social construction can only build on those "pure" experiences.

Sionella · 20/05/2017 01:52

Technically I think women can ejaculate. I remember that being pointed out to the lecturer in one of my criminal law lectures (he said that a fetish could only be me because a fetish means something that makes you ejaculate, and only men can ejaculate). His face when several female students said that it was definitely possible:ShockBlush

Sionella · 20/05/2017 01:53

Christ!!! He said a fetish could only be MALE.

Italiangreyhound · 20/05/2017 02:10

I don't mind people identifying as non-binary, that's up to them. But it doesn't stop the human race procreating in a binary way.

SnapAttack I read that piece you posted too, elsewhere. It's just such a load of rubbish though, because
A) of course we are talking about humans, no one was talking about animals that can change sex if there are not enough females or males around. Because humans cannot change sex!

So people who identify as this or that are not identifying as animals (except of course the ones who are!) But the fact that some people might identify as say... a dragon, which is even a mythical animal, well it doesn't really mean they are that mythical animal does it?

And if someone genuinely believed that that was all true would a school employ them to teach human biology? I bloody hope not.

And yes, of course there are intersex people, and they deserve respect and care, and yes, of course teachers can teach about this.

But it doesn't alter the fact that as a species human beings have a biological sex, which is used for procreation, and is female and male. And it also doesn't alter the fact that, currently, sadly, females are disadvantaged by their biological sex.

You can't identify out of that if you are female. You may be lucky enough not to be affected by it, but just declaring oneself non-binary won't alter the fact that others will be able, in many cases, to work out what sex you are, and for females this may be used to their disadvantage.

Datun · 20/05/2017 06:26

You may be lucky enough not to be affected by it, but just declaring oneself non-binary won't alter the fact that others will be able, in many cases, to work out what sex you are, and for females this may be used to their disadvantage.

I suppose that's the dividing line between people who mind and people who don't.

Many women, feminists particularly, care very much about the way women are disadvantaged.

And they are not disadvantaged by dogs, or the weather. They are disadvantaged by men. Not all men, and not as individuals. But in terms of a class.

It's tangible, quantifiable and studiable (not sure that's a word).

And diminishing the importance of women's biology in the way they are disadvantaged is a step backwards.

There is no intrinsic reason why a species who have different reproductive systems should result in the global oppression of the females.

It's a social structure which benefits the males over the females.

And women have done a tremendous amount to reduce that disadvantage. Pushing for laws on reproductive rights, maternity pay, equal pay, being able to vote so we can have a voice. Even after I was married, it was perfectly legal for my husband to rape me (because sex is a wife's duty). We are talking about really, really recent changes.

They way men and women are treated differently has got nothing to do with personality, how they identify, how they express themselves or what they want.

Yet again I am reminded of that woman who identified as a man. After she was raped in the back of a taxi, she sobbingly told the police officer, but I kept telling him I was a man.

Unfortunately, enragingly, devastatingly - that's not how it works.

I have no issue with people who want to identify in a way that eases their path. But do not let something that appears progressive at face value, obscure or diminish the real reason why women have to fight to be treated equally.

user1487175389 · 20/05/2017 08:02

snap as a group, intersex people are fuming about constantly being dragged into the armoury of transactivists and their allies in their unscientific attempts to pretend humanity isn't sexually dimorphic. They know posts like yours are irrelevant to true sexual equality and deep down I suspect you know it too.

MissBax · 20/05/2017 08:28

Slightly off topic but just for the record, women can't ejaculate - it's urine (when we orgasm we have sudden intense relaxation of muscles - including bladder muscles in some women).

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Loopsdefruits · 20/05/2017 08:34

Sorry for being awol lol attempting to pack my stuff and do a ton of laundry before I go home for summer/move house. There's a ton of new posts and I may have forgotten a lot of it but...

@terfing you asked if NB people should be able to claim maternity leave? IMO we shouldn't have 'maternity' and 'paternity' leave, we should have parental leave which is a set amount that can be taken by either parent (or the parent in the case of single parents). But as we do have mat leave rn, it should be based on bio sex rather than gender ID, and NB people who are biologically female can choose whether they wish to take it.

SnapAttack · 20/05/2017 08:48

Ha I lireeally only only was commenting on the fact the sex part isn't just xy or xx in all cases. Again, the 2nd half is about humans and i haven't quite treated the post like a scientific peer reviewed article. I put my hands up and say I know very very little about this area and would like to know more and understand it better .

user zero intention to offend. This is a topic I am interested in but to be honest don't know much about so.it has been really interesting to read so many things from people. I have never really seen so many viewpoints all at once. I personally have no issue with how people choose to identify and am all for sexual equality. I think the OP s original post and a lot of poster have been very dismissive and quite rude..some probably through ignorance which I where I feel.I am a too.

I don't really Come across this area with the topics I teach but I am really interested to know from people who are pro sexual equality how best to address talking to young people about it. Why kind of things would have been useful to hear at school and what should teachers know?

Normal class teachers are being given pshe lessons like this to teach.. teachers across the whole school of all specialisms and told to cover it as a lesson. But given little resources and basic info and also have very little time to go and research it fir thenselves

About issues like grooming, consent, alcohol abuse, eating disorders. Most teachers will have to throw something together in 10 minutes or so.

So.. any tips?

user1487175389 · 20/05/2017 08:51

Yes, pretty much any serious life changing decision should be made with reference to biological sex rather than vague notions of gender or other whimsical or externally imposed personality traits. Being a bit of a grunger back in the 90s didn't stop me wanting hygienic peaceful conditions to give birth in.

SnapAttack · 20/05/2017 08:55

MissBax are you sure?

Ktown · 20/05/2017 08:56

Snap - if you studied biology you will know full well in order for humans to procreate you need a sperm from xy - male and egg from xx - female. Why try and confuse the matter? You must know humans cannot change sex.

Lancelottie · 20/05/2017 09:00

Loops, maternity leave has to be given to the mother in the first instance because she is the one giving birth. Whatever her later agreement with her partner, he can't do that bit. You can't identify out of that sort of biology.

MissBax · 20/05/2017 09:03

Snap Well I'm a final year nursing student specialising in gynecology and sexual health. Few studies have actually been carried out - of those that have all samples of "female ejaculate" have contained urine, some of which contained another secretion from what some scientists believe can come from glands thought to be similar to the male prostate, although this is widely contradicted. What we do know is it always comes from the urethra - wee pipe! 😕

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SnapAttack · 20/05/2017 09:06

Ktown where have i said anything suggesting i think that!!!

I am aware about sperm and eggs yes. I have also read "where willy went"

SnapAttack · 20/05/2017 09:09

That s really interesting missbax. I get asked this question sometimes

SnapAttack · 20/05/2017 09:10

The wee pipe 😂

MissBax · 20/05/2017 09:15

Snap 😂😂

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