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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Non Binary / Gender Neutral

952 replies

MissBax · 17/05/2017 08:21

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

OP posts:
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marfisa · 19/05/2017 22:07

walking, we're not going to agree on definitions because our definitions are fundamentally different. While some feminists subscribe to the sex/gender distinction, loads don't. In practical terms, I would see sex/gender (or nature/nurture) as impossible to separate out.

You could have a look at the wikipedia entry 'Sex and gender distinction' and scroll down to the bit entitled 'Criticism of the "sex difference" versus "gender difference" distinction'; that's a very quick intro to the idea that the sex/gender distinction is problematic (though I haven't read the particular authors cited there).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction#Criticism_of_the_.22sex_difference.22_versus_.22gender_difference.22_distinction

Walkingtowork · 19/05/2017 22:11

I'm having a stab at it marfisa but don't expect too much due to the aforementioned Wine

marfisa · 19/05/2017 22:12

style, I'm interested in your certainty that your niece's desire to identify as gender-neutral is an attention-seeking whim.

Isn't it more likely that she's someone keenly interested in feminism and gender issues and is trying to work through them, even if it's not in a way that you agree with?

Walkingtowork · 19/05/2017 22:17

Ok, "The biological manifestations of sex are confounded with psychosocial variables"

How? What's a biological manifestation of sex? To me that's, what, periods? Pregnancy? Producing sperm?

"it is not at all clear the degree to which the differences between males and females are due to biological factors versus learned and cultural factors"

Well it's very clear which biological differences are due to biology (confusing self) as I believe sex to be purely biological. Any other differences are surely socialisation and personality.

I agree with it that use of the word gender is confusing - many people think they're interchangable. Definition problem again.

I can't work out the last paragraph I'm afraid.

marfisa · 19/05/2017 22:18

Grin at walking.

Walkingtowork · 19/05/2017 22:22

Blush someone else have a go!

styledilemma · 19/05/2017 22:22

style, I'm interested in your certainty that your niece's desire to identify as gender-neutral is an attention-seeking whim

Because every month her status says something new and outrageous and wacky.
This month she is Gender Neutral
Next month it will be something else.
Shes a teenager.

I think people can overthink these things. That's the danger and where we are going wrong.

marfisa · 19/05/2017 22:24

I can't work out that last paragraph either.

But the bottom line I think is that you see sex as purely biological, which I don't. Or rather, I would say that sex may indeed be 'purely' biological, but we as humans have no purely biological way of experiencing it. So I don't see the sex/gender distinction as particularly useful.

marfisa · 19/05/2017 22:24

I was grinning at your tipsiness by the way, not your intellectual analysis! Grin

marfisa · 19/05/2017 22:28

I think people can overthink these things. That's the danger and where we are going wrong.

Mmm. I think it's dangerous to assume that people who disagree with you disagree with you just because they are 'overthinking'.

Gender identity and sexual identity ARE incredibly complicated and no two human beings are the same. So for me, calling people what they want to be called is the opposite of overthinking. It's respecting their choices even if I don't fully understand or agree with their choices.

styledilemma · 19/05/2017 22:30

OK
My son thinks hes a Parakeet.
I will respect his they choices. Hmm

Walkingtowork · 19/05/2017 22:32

Oh, thanks! I don't mind, it was a bit garbled.

I think (with what's left of my brain power) that you might mean: other mammals, for example, experience being the sex they are in a purely biological way, whereas we're much more complicated with culture etc, so it's a more complex thing for us?

Whereas I'd say of course everything we experience is complex, and they way we experience being the sex we are is influenced by gender (norms placed on us by society to force us into the right box for our biological sex). And we'd be much better off if these boxes wither didn't exist, or at least weren't so rigid. And as things stand the box for women is more oppressive than the men's one

marfisa · 19/05/2017 22:32

Now you're just being silly, style

styledilemma · 19/05/2017 22:36

I don't think so.
I'm entitled to an opinion.
I think that it's part of the teenage 'psyche' to experiment and rebel.
We, as parents, do them a great disservice, if we don't keep a level head through this 'experimentation' stage.

Walkingtowork · 19/05/2017 22:37

Where you say you don't see the sex/gender distinction as particularly useful, I would say it's critical for the liberation of women. But not everyone thinks women need liberating, or that it's all done and dusted

Iggi999 · 19/05/2017 22:39

Surely when we use pronouns we are referring to the person's biology not their feelings about gender. The only people who would then need something other than he/she are intersex people, who can decide themselves what they want to be called. Out of politeness I would try to use anyone's preferred pronouns but that doesn't mean I believe that pronouns come about from gender identity.

marfisa · 19/05/2017 22:41

Whereas I'd say of course everything we experience is complex, and they way we experience being the sex we are is influenced by gender (norms placed on us by society to force us into the right box for our biological sex). And we'd be much better off if these boxes wither didn't exist, or at least weren't so rigid. And as things stand the box for women is more oppressive than the men's one

When you put it like this, we have a lot of common ground. I suppose I would say though that there is no possibility of SOME box not existing. In other words, there will never be a world where sex isn't influenced by gender. The idea that we can throw off the trammels of gender and live some kind of pure biological identity is absurd. But yes, we CAN be aware of the boxes, and of the arbitrariness and injustice of the boxes, and live our lives in ways that are less rigid. And one way to go about this would be to identify as gender neutral. Even though I personally don't want to do that; I am happy to combat gender norms while still identifying as a woman!

I DO see men as being oppressed by gender norms as well by the way, but I agree that historically women have been, and are still now, worse off than men.

marfisa · 19/05/2017 22:44

I DO think women need liberating! Or a lot more liberating anyway.

Walkingtowork · 19/05/2017 22:45

Well I completely agree with all of that, including that men are restricted somewhat too. MAybe going through the palaver of 'gender neutral' is necessary on the way for those gender to be removed as much as is possible

marfisa · 19/05/2017 22:47

Iggi, I've just tried to explain that I don't think a person's biology and a person's feelings about gender can be separated out in that tidy way.

But I'm keenly aware that there are many different ways of understanding sex and gender and the roles that they play in our lives. The issues are so knotty that I don't think there will ever be a consensus among feminists on this.

Iggi999 · 19/05/2017 22:56

You have said sex is influenced by gender. How can a biological definition (chromosomes, genitalia, reproductive system) be influenced by a social construct? The other way around I could understand, but what sex i am is no more influenced by anyone's ideas about gender than my height is by my ideas of what I should look like in the mirror.

CalmItKermitt · 19/05/2017 23:03

I don't really get the pronoun thing.

If someone decides they're the queen and insists everyone refers to them as "your majesty" I might if I felt like humouring them but I certainly wouldn't be being unreasonable to refuse to pander to their delusion. No matter how much they felt like the queen.

user1487175389 · 19/05/2017 23:07

What Iggi said.

I'm sick to the back teeth of the feigned wide-eyed innocence of the key-stage-1-level difference between sex and gender. If my 7 year old understands the difference you bloody well do too! It's not complicated, it's incredibly simple and obvious and anyone who says otherwise is a total charlatan.

Bambambini · 19/05/2017 23:23

Well that depends on what they are being taught at school.

Non Binary / Gender Neutral
Non Binary / Gender Neutral
sticklebrix · 19/05/2017 23:29

I often wonder what biology teachers make of that sort of thing Bambambini

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