Non Binary / Gender Neutral

[MissBax]

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

Totally agree nauticant. You can see it in the changing of the language that is used.

Biological sex has gone from something that doesn't matter to something actually socially constructed. And/or coercively assigned.

Yes, I've had a sense for a while that having established the pink brain/blue brain theory as "fact" meaning that gender is innate from birth, ie a biological certainty and not socially constructed, the focus of the lobbying is now shifting onto biological sex to present it as a spectrum characteristic which is only to be determined according to where on the spectrum an individual believes themselves to be.

The goal being for biological sex to be simply a matter of choice while one's gender (one's masculinity or femininity) is to be a hardwired biological fact.

It is almost painful to get one's head around this. Which is not accidental.

Very well put nauticant.

And, it has to be said, only a man could think one could shape shift across the sexes according to whim.

It's no surprise that the battle is being fought on line between TRAs and feminists.

I do find NB a little hard to understand, but then as an ace person I find sexual attraction a little hard to understand :/

I don't mind using preferred pronouns, and I don't think that 'they' is only appropriate for plural use (you'd use they as a singular pronoun if you didn't know the sex/gender of the person you were talking about and that has always been grammatically correct) tbh 'grammar' is arguable, as it's created and maintained by existing social structures (just look at AAVE).

I guess for me, you don't need to 'understand' something to accept it, but then I do get why a lot of people object to the current situation, there will always be people who object to things, some will be proved right and some wrong. Time will tell. You can only 'pick' the side you think is right, the one you believe in. As with most beliefs you think are correct, it's understandable to try and change other people's minds.

I do object to my generation being referred to as 'snowflakes' it's rude and condescending, young people (like everyone else) are just trying to make sense of their existence, of the hand that they have been dealt, of the economic and societal pressures placed upon us and that will be placed upon our children. Perhaps we are going about it wrong, but so have other generations. We didn't wreck the economy, or the environment, or elect Trump/The Tories, yet we are the ones facing the brunt of those decisions.

Not trying to derail, just trying to collate my thoughts on the whole thread lol I don't mind engaging with people who think differently, but I'm done trying to 'change people's minds' lol

Loopsdefruit the term 'special snowflake' doesn't refer to an entire generation (my son isn't one for a start), more to a certain mindset more prevalant amongst younger people.
Not their fault of course, it's the result of parenting attitudes and certain educational policies. Life in the UK used to be much harsher and more about survival, life wasn't centred around children and young people. Things have swung the other way now, probably too far in the other direction. Things need to balance out a little, IMO.

I get that it doesn't refer to an entire generation, but it does seem to be used predominantly by older people about younger people. You don't get many people calling older people 'snowflakes' although arguably some of them do act in a very individualistic way. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what makes someone a snowflake, I've seen it used towards people who self ID as having various mental illness/learning difficulties (I do think that a diagnosis can be incredibly beneficial for people to get support, but diagnosis isn't always easy to access) or people who ID as not LGB but prefer a different 'letter' or people who expect to be treated fairly at work or school and perhaps don't just accept certain working or life conditions.

Those uses seem unfair to me, although I do see that some people do act entitled and that does rub people the wrong way.

I get that it doesn't refer to an entire generation, but it does seem to be used predominantly by older people about younger people.
Why do you think this is?
I'm an older person (57) and this is very noticeable to me, in fact there's even a difference between my eldest son and his peers, and his younger brother and his peer group, and there's only 8 years difference between them.
I'm not criticising for the sake of it , there have been some very positive changes in attitudes as well. Less racism, less homophobia, eg.

How is being non binary similar to sexual attraction?

What is it you don't understand about sexual attraction?

I don't know? I think it's very dependent on the specific behaviour being critiqued by the term.

I think generally there is always going to be the issue of older people being critical of younger people and the choices that they make (parents being critical of their children's generation).

There seems to be an issue of older people thinking that younger people have it much easier, which leads to them accusing young people who aren't coping of being weak/entitled/whiny. A lack of understanding of what being a child/teen/young adult in the world today is actually like.

I do think that there is a lot of frustration and anger at the increased 'labelling' of themselves and each other present in my generation/people younger than me (I'm 26). This again leads to accusations that people are trying to be unique/special/different...but more so it seems to me, that people are trying to find words to understand their reality, and to NOT feel so 'different'. Bisexual doesn't 'fit' so they are pansexual, 'girl' and 'boy' don't fit, so they're both or neither...rightly or wrongly, they can then find people who feel the same?

This doesn't mean that kids now have created these identities, but rather finding words for them. Similar to how 'asexuality' got defined, but has existed for much longer than people had a name for it.

sylvia NB doesn't have anything to do with sexual attraction, aside from that it is an experience I do not share, like sexual attraction. I understand the idea of sexual attraction, but as I don't experience it my understanding is limited to "some people say that they want to have sex with other people"

Well, I could quibble and say that some people experience sexual attraction but don't actually want sex, and some people want sex for reasons other than sexual attraction, but let's broadly agree.

It doesn't seem more complicated to me than understanding some people do or do not want to have children.

But what is it that nonbinary people want?

I don't know, I'm not NB? I assume to just be able to dress how they like and do what they want, and be referred to by their preferred name and pronouns :/ Ideally we'd live in a society where individuals could do that without having to ID in a special way, but we don't, so in order for someone to be able to do that they feel they need a 'label' that others will accept?

Yeh, like, I don't experience sexual attraction, and don't have any interest in having sex. I do want children and am planning on having them. But lots of ace people enjoy sex, have a sex drive, and don't experience sexual attraction. I don't know if wanting/having children has much to do with it lol

What I mean is that someone can say that they experience sexual attraction, and I can accept that, but I don't really 'get' it because I don't experience it.

'I assume to just be able to dress how they like and do what they want.'

That's what everyone wants. It doesn't explain what non binary people want or are.

I understand what asexual means.

It's a very odd idea, and certainly tied to the snowflake thing, that people can't understand what something is unless they are also that thing.

This doesn't mean that kids now have created these identities, but rather finding words for them.

That would be fine if we weren't all expected to validate those identities within the narrow confines of gender pigeonholing.

Yeh, I can understand that, it does seem a bit...confusing, I do kind of understand though, that I 'feel' like a woman, despite not only liking/doing traditionally feminine things, and I don't think that if I were to not menstruate or didn't have boobs, or didn't have a vagina that I would not feel the way I feel inside.

Like, if someone started referring to me as 'he' or expecting me to act in a traditionally masculine way, I would feel uncomfortable with that. Perhaps that's due to having been raised a girl, I don't know. But it's not that hard for me to understand that someone says they don't feel like a boy/girl/either :/

I think it's entirely reasonable to suggest that you can't fully understand something that isn't part of your lived experience? You may be able to appreciate the 'academics' of it, or grasp the concepts, but that's why representation is so crucial. There's some aspects of lived experiences that are shared only by those who live them, and other people kinda have to accept that what those people are saying is true.

I do dislike the idea that girls have to do x and boys have to do y and you can't be a girl/boy if you do this or that. I think parents who decide their child is trans because of their interests are abhorrent, same with parents of a gay child who want a 'normal' straight child so transition them to become more 'socially acceptable' .

But I also think that gender identity is a real thing, and that GI doesn't always relate to biological sex. I don't know 'where' GI comes from, it's not as easy as boy brain and girl brain, but I think that as science improves and more research is done, there will be a 'reason' for why some people are trans.

Did any of you see the Bill Nye Saves The World episode on gender identity, do you have any thoughts on that?

Why do I need to know whether or not anyone feels particularly masculine of feminine about anything?

Is that what you are saying nonbinary means, a person who feels neither entirely masculine or feminine, aka everyone?!

I am not asking for a complete understanding of someone's lived experience; that is totally impossible to accomplish, unless we're getting into some kind of Jungian spirituality. I'm just asking for an understanding that can be socially communicated between people.

It might be that they don't feel particularly masculine or feminine? Like, I don't feel 'masculine' at all, if I had to put myself on the 'spectrum' of gender, I'd put myself on the female/woman side. I may not 'present' that way all the time, but it's not about how I perform my gender, it's just how I think of/view myself.

NB people may put themselves in the middle, or not on the spectrum at all. Again, nothing to do with how they perform their identity, or how others may view them. Just about how they think of themselves.

Historically there have always been cultures who have viewed gender and sex as not binary (third gender exists and has existed as far back as ancient egypt and maybe earlier).

I don't think that NB people necessarily want anything different, other than to just be recognised as not viewing themselves as fitting completely with either male or female as a descriptor?

As soon as you start introducing the idea of a gender spectrum, it stops being about you and being about you in comparison to other human beings, unless you're comparing yourself to the gender of frogs, chairs and rainbows.

If non binary people don't want anything other than not to be called male or female, then that's easy to accommodate but is in no way comparable to sexual attraction, which actually has a description beyond getting other people not to refer to you as asexual.

Historically there have always been cultures who have viewed gender and sex as not binary

How does that work when sex is binary? People are free to play fast and loose with gender but sex is a biological fact.

It's utter bullshit.

It's little snowflakes wanting to feel precious because they didn't get enough cuddles when they were kids.

You're either male or female. Or sometimes you have the equipment of both.

And regards to sexuality. You either like men, women or both.

Bloody sick of hearing about it all the time. People need to get a grip and realise no one gives a shit.

It surprises me that these people believe that others actually give a shit at how they choose to identify themselves.

No one cares. Get over yourself.

If, hypothetically speaking, the entire world population declared themselves to be gender neutral then within days, you can guarantee some (previously strident gender neutrals) would be insisting that they now identify as Rainbow-Hued-Cosmic-Smurfs...

Yeah, right, knock yourselves out [yawns...]

'I assume to just be able to dress how they like and do what they want.'

Yes, so do I. Sometimes in ways that are seen as traditionally masculine and sometimes in ways that aren't.

Yeh, I can understand that, it does seem a bit...confusing
It's not that I don't understand what you or for example some NB people are saying. I simply disagree.

If, hypothetically speaking, the entire world population declared themselves to be gender neutral then within days, you can guarantee some (previously strident gender neutrals) would be insisting that they now identify as Rainbow-Hued-Cosmic-Smurfs...

Yup. Thing is though, 99.999% of the population are actually non-binary. Maybe 100%, though I don't say 100% as there is a small possibility that a couple of people exist somewhere that actually are walking stereotypes of masculinity or femininity. For 'non-binary' and such to be special, they have to assume that the majority of other people are actually 'binary' so its quite offensive really when you think about it properly.

LOL at the derails about trans and the weird post about how 'the gays are everywhere!!!' though I do kind of get the point about how a lot of gay people on TV make a huge deal of the fact that they are gay. I have many gay friends and none of them feel the need to introduce themselves by saying 'I am Paul and I am gay' and such.

People clearly do not even read the posts before they come on to cry 'bigots' at everyone...also I am quite amused by the large post about how someone who is female and dresses in a more traditionally masculine way and how this is somehow special and means she is non-binary...just all seems so weird.

Before anyone calls me a bigot...I am actually trans (according to stonewalls definition...look it up, bet you are too!) so I am allowed to have an opinion on the made up bollocks that is 'gender'...

angrylady you either like women, men, or both...or neither? And you can be sexually attracted to women, but romantically attracted to men or whatever. Sexual and romantic attraction are not the same, it's complicated. I just think that sex and gender are also complicated.

sylvia yeh, I suppose it does mean that you're comparing yourself to other people, I don't think that's wrong though?

nauticant The wiki page has lots of examples? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender#History

I suppose that it only really makes sense if sex is binary but gender is real and different from sex. It might not be true, but it has existed for a long time.

Again, I don't think being NB has anything to do with how you present your gender. There are plenty of women who dress 'masculine' or are in 'masculine' jobs that identify as women and that would be uncomfortable with the idea that they are men.

There are plenty of men who are 'gender nonconforming' who still view themselves as male.

Then there are people who dress how they like, and who view themselves as neither entirely male or entirely female.

I view myself as entirely female, not even a little bit 'male'. I still view myself as entirely female when I wear track pants, or baggy tops, or when I was a kid who played with lego or got in mud fights. I don't view myself as 'male' when I present in a 'masculine' way, I don't need to present as female in order to feel female and know I am a woman. I'm lucky in that the way I feel about myself matches with the genitals I was born with. But I also think that not feeling that way is a thing that exists.