Non Binary / Gender Neutral

[MissBax]

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

I also don't think you're bigots lol people are entitled to their opinions, and the people (on both sides) who say terrible things are shitty people

"People need to get a grip and realise no one gives a shit."

Oddly, if that were indeed the case, things like this wouldnt be a problem. But people do give a shit. Like the OP.

There are a whole load of people who like to pigeon hole, classify and box everyone into their little place and get stressed when people don't conform. Because they give a shit There are a whole load of people who do not conform to someone else's classification but are then hypocritical by claiming a different box for themselves. Because they give a shit (and are often shat upon as well).

If we let people be who they want to be, let people associate with who they want to associate with and consider everyone to be equal and deserving of recognition and space then there would be no need to give a shit or shit upon others or be shat upon.

I think the Culture novels have it totally right.

Good point scottishdiem.

I hereby out myself as: 'contemporaryidentityandgenderpoliticsnonconforming'.

scottish yeh I agree, people do care, which is fair enough in some respects. Until we actually get equality in society, it's understandable that people care about how people ID. But I wish it wasn't like that

I think, if I understand my own thesis correctly SenseiWoo, then by outing yourself as contemporaryidentityandgenderpoliticsnonconforming you have actually given a shit.

Sorry there are only two sexes female and male...you trans into one or the other no beige areas.

Your example of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender#History gives examples of mythical beings, males or females referred to as being a third gender for various reasons, intersex people, homosexuals, eunuchs, and gender non-conforming individuals.

What it doesn't contain is any evidence that biological sex is non-binary.

You really need to think more critically about what you're reading.

wonders- how can you trans into another sex?

you trans into one or the other no beige areas

What does that mean though?

I don't think anyone can be 100% a walking stereotype because those stereotypes vary between time and place. And even people living in the same time and place have their own stereotypes. For example in my family my dm (rightly ) thinks I am far more capable and mature than my brother and she has said something along the lines of it being because I'm female and him male. In my dh's family they think the very opposite and believe their dd needs far more caring for and looking after than their ds's and have expressed similar about their granddaughters compared to their grandsons. They both have similar views but attach the opposite view to the opposite sex if you see what I mean.

I think there are lots of inconsistencies between other commonly held gender stereotypes too. I've thought of a few but the only one that springs to mind right now, having just changed a pretty disgusting nappy, is how boys/men are often associated with dirt, getting their hands dirty etc, yet girls/women are often expected to take on caring roles which generally involve clearing up bodily fluids etc.

I think, if I understand my own thesis correctly SenseiWoo, then by outing yourself as contemporaryidentityandgenderpoliticsnonconforming you have actually given a shit.

Oh! Rats. But if I did it ironically, is that ok?

And then there are the ones who, having stepped out of the boxes they imagine other people tried to force them into; insist on ramming this down the throat of the world at large; not understanding that the world at large doesn't give a shit, scottish

I agree people DO give a shit, when it starts affecting their lives. Ie. When my brother gets called out at uni for being a hateful bigot for using the incorrect pronoun for someone who is 'genderqueer' and changes their pronoun daily! Yes, this is ridiculous. maybe it hasn't impacted on my own life yet as the youngsters aren't really my 'crowd' now but it is definitely affecting the younger generation. Some are lapping it all up and/or deciding they themselves are non-binary genderqueer unicorn s who must be referred to as bunself or else its a hatecrime. Its just mental.

I see a time in the future where there is a huge backlash agai9nst this stupidness. And unfortunately as the 'gender identity' crowd have attached themselves pretty firmly to LGB people, LGB people will also suffer in the backlash which is really bad. Many LGB people are pushing back against TQI+++ already...lesbians especially, as they are getting the brunt of it all to start with. They have males calling them bigots for their sexuality. They also on the other hand have people telling them they have to come out as transmen/non-binary/whatever. Its all so fucking wrong.

"Your example of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender#History gives examples of mythical beings, males or females referred to as being a third gender for various reasons, intersex people, homosexuals, eunuchs, and gender non-conforming individuals.

What it doesn't contain is any evidence that biological sex is non-binary.

You really need to think more critically about what you're reading."

Just read that link and came on to the say this. Exactly this. It shows that people who either had a medical condition, or who did not live up to the sex roles of their time, were considered 'other'. Plus some fictitious people.

nauticant This is from the link, which yes is wikipedia, but it's referenced if you wished to read more about it.

"References to a third sex can be found throughout the texts of India's three ancient spiritual traditions"

"The Vedas (c. 1500 BC–500 BC) describe individuals as belonging to one of three categories, according to one's nature or prakrti.

These are also spelled out in the Kama Sutra (c. 4th century AD) and elsewhere as pums-prakrti (male-nature), stri-prakrti (female-nature), and tritiya-prakrti (third-nature)."

"Texts suggest that third sex individuals were well known in premodern India and included male-bodied or female-bodied people as well as intersexuals, and that they can often be recognised from childhood."

That's just one example, although yeh there are examples from mythology as well.

I don't think that biological sex is non-binary, excluding intersex which is a medical issue rather than a 'third sex' but I do think gender is more complex than 2 genders that align with your bio sex.

I think there are as many genders as there are people on the planet. And I think that that is completely unremarkable and should be wholly insignificant.

You're getting there but I still feel you're conflating sex and gender.

Sex is what's between your legs, gender is not and there's an argument that gender is socially constructed and therefore not 'real' in the same way as sex?

I do think gender is real though, although gender 'roles' and the expected performance of gender is a load of crap?

loops don't take this the wrong way lass, but maybe it's the way you put a question mark after all your statements or the fact I feel like I was in your situation makes me think you don't 100% buy what you're saying.

Do you believe in what you're saying because you believe in it, or because it's what you feel you should believe in and you accepted it because the people around you have taken it as gospel? Because the latter is how I'm reading it and I know, I really do, a few years ago I was saying the same things on MN and increasingly I just couldn't back those arguments up or stand by those statements.

Because you say gender roles are a load of crap, but you believe in gender. What's the difference? What is "in your head" apart from your personality, and which parts of your personality comes into gender apart from whatever society has projected as male and female?

What do you think gender is, Loopsdefruits? How would you describe it to a person who has no idea what it is?

Can you tell a person's gender just by looking at them/getting to know them? (sorry for posting twice, these are genuine questions)

I would like to know how being non binary plays out in every day life.

Apart from asking people not to assign stereotypical roles to you, which I agree with, how else does it manifest itself?

And then you have the tricky problem of biology. You cannot ask to be treated as neither male nor female if you are getting raped, giving birth, etc.

Which makes gender expression superficial on some levels, at least.

And I am seriously wondering, if your appearance is androgynous (so people can't tell) and you identify as non-binary, would you actually get treated differently? So if you are born a woman, would you get treated like a man, a woman, or like an anomaly?

I think I believe in what I'm saying, at least with the knowledge I have now, having read the critical literature from both sides. I think I put questions marks because I don't know all the answers, and I don't have the self-confidence to assume that I must be correct, or that my views won't change in future. It's sort of a university habit, we all discuss things but try to frame our statements as questions to continue the discussion.

I think that gender is a part of your personality that details how you view yourself in the context of the ideas of male and female. I think that the ideas of male and female can be crap, especially when the roles are super restrictive. But I also think that you'd still have an idea of your own gender even if you were raised in a 'gender neutral' way. Gender is part of who you are, but it's not always as simple as what bio parts you have.

I don't know where gender comes from, I think a large part is 'nurture' but I think nature does play a part, I'm all for removing harmful gender roles and the idea that you have to conform to feminine things to be female, maybe when we get there some trans and NB people will not feel the need to ID that way, but I'm not convinced that all trans and NB people will stop feeling the way they do.

Blue I don't think you can tell someone's gender just by looking at them, you might be able to tell their bio sex by looking at them but you might be wrong. So like, a bio woman with small boobs with short hair, wearing a suit, you might assume is a man given the way she presents. They may ID as male, or they may not. All you really know is that there is a person with short hair wearing a suit.

Datun Gender expression is superficial, it's about the way other people view you I think, especially strangers. I don't know how being NB plays out in everyday life, I suppose you could watch some videos from NB people discussing their experiences and see? I probably haven't read/watched/listened to enough NB narratives to accurately understand their experiences, I have a couple of friends who ID as NB, but other than just respecting their pronouns and chosen names I haven't really dug much deeper.

I do agree that it is, unhelpful, to ask to be treated as neither male nor female (or as your gender ID) when seeking medical care, your bio sex is important and your biology is important for medical professionals to know because it can and does impact your health. But if you're seeking care, then I don't see a problem with HCPs using your preferred pronouns and name while they provide that care.

*they present (sorry, mixed up my pronouns)

Loops, how does 'gender' differ from 'personality'?