Non Binary / Gender Neutral

[MissBax]

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

Nope. Non Binary, gender fluid yada - are all transgender.

Bambambini - how can that be he case if they then go through operations and take hormonal medication? Surely that means they are identifying as the opposite gender - not no gender?

It's also Goodwin's law that on gender threads a random poster appears and tells us all how horrible we are, without engaging in discussion...

It's interesting that gender neutrality and as such has become more of a "thing" since people started earning money and notoriety by being specialists and councilors in the subject! Generally I really don't care what people's orientation or beliefs are and would not even object to changes in language and wider society norms to low then to integrate. However, gender is such an important part of identity, language and culture it feels wrong to deny it. I would be more comfortable to say we as a society have the ability to define it and that definitions may change, yet it exists and always will.

Coming to the thread a bit late one but only just saw it.

I am sort of starting to get a bit 🙄 about it now because it seems sooooooooo commonplace now. So many people seem to 'come out' as gay, or bisexual, or pansexual, or non linear, or gender fluid, or trans etc, that it's getting a bit boring, hearing about it.

It also seems every programme has to have someone non-straight on it now. (To appease the politically correct maybe?) I actually saw a comedian on Tonight at the London Palladium tonight, and a comedian came on, and the first thing he said is 'I'm gay.' Why? I feel like they want to be treated as equal to heteros (and fair enough so they should be,) but then seem to set themselves apart when it suits. I didn't hear a single hetero person announce they are straight.

And now we have this thing about all these non gender people. It's all getting a bit old now, and making me go 🙄

Another thing I have noticed is that although some men seem to transition to women in middle age or older, and claim they have been a woman trapped in a man's body for many years, I never see women transitioning to men... (Not when they are middle aged or older.) It's always men becoming women. What's that about?

Upshot is, there are so many different types of person now, that it's all getting a bit and there is always someone who accuses you of saying the 'wrong' thing.

There was literally none of this when I was a teen; none.

Trans and non binary isn't the same. Trans people identify as the (socially constructed) gender opposite to that which was assigned to them at birth. NB people don't identify as any gender (but routinely enforce fender stereotypes nonetheless).

Quim thank you - thought I was losing my mind!

MissBax.. you need a hobby

But Quim according to most of the definitions I have read Non-Binary is Trans.

This is Stonewall's definition for example -

Trans– an umbrella term to describepeople whose gender is not the sameas, or does not sit comfortably with,the sex they were assigned at birth.Trans people may describe themselvesusing one or more of a wide varietyof terms, including (but not limitedto) Transgender, Transsexual,Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid,Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser,Genderless, Agender, Nongender,Third gender, Two-spirit,Bi-gender, Transman, Transwoman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and
Neutrois.

Raven any more soundbites to add? I will be the person telling you what you said is bs and soectacularly missing the point of the thread.

So many people come out as gay... because they are? What do you suggest they do? And unless you cone out and tell people you are largely assumed to be straight which is why heterosexuals do not need to come out. Being gay isn't one of many different type of person... it's who you are attracted to and who you love ??? Unless you were born on abandoned island I can confirm there were definitely gay people when you were a teenager, they just probably weren't freely able to admit as much which is far worse than you being irritated by there being so many of us nowadays. And even now, my friends in same sex relationships are still getting abuse on the street, buuuuttt... there are too many gays on tv.

There is one "non-straight" on a television because look around you! Wherever you are there's probably a "non-straight", a "non-white"... it is not realistic for the cast of a tv show to be 100% white and straight when most groups of people are not.

A thread discussing the implications of non-binary identities is not your free place to sound off about how you're so bored of hearing about gay people.

Fauchelevent I have to be honest, I am not anti gay at all some of my best friends in the world are gay. But, I'm getting a bit bored of every gay person on tv announcing they are gay and making a big thing outs. of it all the time. If anything I think it reinforces gay stereotypes and further segragates then into a box rather than just showing them for what they are- just like everybody else.

I think we have a weird obsession with knowing the sexual orientation of people.

Non of my gat friends for example introduce them selves as 'hi I'm Mel, I'm a lesbien' or 'nice to meet you, I'm mike, I'm gay'

Gender neutral. Gender fluid. Non binary. It's all just attention seeking bullshit.

They are just the 'buzz words' of the time.

I find the people who use them are the generation of the constantly offended.

Reading ravenblack's post, one could almost think someone was trying to turn a discussion about one subject into one about another. The accusations of trans bashing were falling flat because that isn't what this thread is talking about, so someone pitches up and tries to change the subject.

I suppose non-binary, or gender neutral is quick and effective shorthand for saying do not treat me as a definite male or a definite female.

People will pause to think.

Yes, most people are non-binary anyway. But perhaps it's a useful way of pointing it out.

It might, just might make people think about the way they treat us based on our sex.

Which is what feminists want.

Unfortunately, in real life, it seems to be mostly youngsters, who are completely and utterly defined by this label. Or non label. And it's not a neutrality, it's a specialness.

It has the result of saying yes, don't treat me as a definite male, or a definite female, but you must still treat me as a definite something.

But that something has no real definition, it's nebulous. But I am going to force you to run round in circles and give it attention.

So on paper, it looks interesting, but in real life it really, really isn't.

And as most people can tell if someone is a male or a female, they will still get treated accordingly.

individualism leads to 'dont treat me in a sexist way'
how much better and more effective to consider people as groups 'dont treat anyone in a sexist way'
no wonder we are encouraged to think individualistically. as groups, we have power to change things

The contradiction is that the enthusiasts for these 101+ genders would have us believe we're going into a world of great freedom and self-expression when instead it's leading to a reinforcing of stereotypes with everyone being stuck in little boxes with continual turf-wars (terf-wars?) over smaller and smaller bits of territory. It looks like a control-freak's nirvana.

SnapAttack - "MissBax.. you need a hobby" - care to expand on that?

Saskia I don't share her views on people staying quiet about their sexuality. But Raven's conflation of sexuality, biology and gender is common, given that our culture now largely treats them as the same issues.

individualism leads to 'dont treat me in a sexist way'
how much better and more effective to consider people as groups 'dont treat anyone in a sexist way'
no wonder we are encouraged to think individualistically. as groups, we have power to change things

^^ Yes!

People can change gender all they like. I don't care particularly. However you can never change your DNA and that is a fact that many transgender people hate I think.

saskia but why don't people want us to have that conversation? Hmm...

I typed out a reply to stick and lost it all. I also don't wish to further derail the conversation so i'll just post this instead.

Ross Matthews, possibly the kind of "boring" gay you bemoan, very openly gay, very camp, very visible, a judge on a drag queen reality show for goodness sake, responds to Milo Yiannopolis (assumably the good kind of gay to some...) who said a mother wrote to Milo to thank him for being the good kind of gay, because she really did not want her son growing up to believe he had to be anything like Ross Matthews.

My final question would be, who benefits if gay people go back to being less visible and do all the things you suggest? Uncomfortable heterosexuals or young gay people?

www.newnownext.com/ross-mathews-responds-milo-diss/02/2017/

This is definitely a derail though, so any more questions I would prefer to go to my inbox or on another thread. This thread is about non-binary identities.

I'd put it another way. Many trans people would love to change sex but know that they cannot and so inflate enormously the significance of gender which they can change, although in a rational world the gender someone displays wouldn't really matter that much.

That's a very good point, nauticant

nauticant I never thought of it like that... interesting