Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Non Binary / Gender Neutral

952 replies

MissBax · 17/05/2017 08:21

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
CricketRuntAndRashers · 17/05/2017 17:23

nauticant

The curriculum must be different in faith schools, right? Because that seems like utter madness! I don't think I can send DD to school in the UK if that is normal here... Sorry :(

StickThatInYourPipe · 17/05/2017 17:24

Bambambini I think that is quite scary. The same as it thought it was scary when 5 year olds were being 'diagnosed' as trans and the parents were going through the process of changing names, hormone treatment etc. I'm so glad I was not born now, I would probably have been diagnosed with this as a child but I actually quite like being a woman now I have grown up and am not a child climbing trees

QuimJongUn · 17/05/2017 17:25

I don't think we need any new classifications, people are biologically born male or female (occasional biological exceptions), there is no need to add any more. There are I believe there are more important things such as poverty and disease to worry about

Totally agree.

Who you are, who you shag, whether you wear trousers or a skirt or think you're a spider is fucking irrelevant. It doesn't matter, it shouldn't matter. We were well on our way to this being the case - equal marriage, anti discrimination law etc - but I fear that all this unnecessary bullshit is beginning to change attitudes. And not for the better.

Bambambini · 17/05/2017 17:25

What we need to do is ditch the stereotypes and expectations that each sex is lumbered with. I think many of these folk are ridiculous and attention seeking but i guess gender nuetral is trying to make this point. Each sex is still different though with different needs etc - denying the importance of biology is nuts.

Aeroflotgirl · 17/05/2017 17:26

Hate the term non binary, sounds like a computer. Also hate other new fangled terms like gender fluid and cis.

Aeroflotgirl · 17/05/2017 17:26

Yes gender neutral is much better.

StickThatInYourPipe · 17/05/2017 17:27

bambambini completely agree with your last point. People just need to be who they are!

QuimJongUn · 17/05/2017 17:30

Problem is, the very crux of gender neutrality is the acknowledgement of gender stereotypes. Which shouldn't exist in the first place. And when NBs bang on about 'girly heels' and 'masculine trousers' I want to scream.

Don't send the message that a little girl who likes wearing trousers BUT also like dolls or a little boy likes video games BUT paints his nails is somehow 'other'. Don't bombard them with what's expected of them due to the shape of their genitalia. It's fucking ludicrous.

onemorecupofcoffeefortheroad · 17/05/2017 17:41

My partner is a woman - she was born with female genitalia which she is very happy with - but her gender is a whole different ballgame (no pun intended) .
I take gender as existing on a spectrum with feminine positioned at one end and masculine positioned at the other and our gender existing somewhere along that spectrum.
My partner's gender is much more on the masculine end of the gender spectrum. Mine's at the feminine end - yet we are both female.
Her gender is not about choosing to wear trousers or climbing trees as a child (I also wear trousers and climbed trees as a child).
She is regularly called "sir" or "mister" - like every day in shops, restaurants. She works a lot in India and we laugh about her constantly being "Sir -Ma'am -ed" there.
She nearly caused a security alert at Mumbai airport where they have separate lines for men and women through security. She had been guided to the male queue - the guards only realised at the last minute that she was a woman and redirected her to the end of the very long female queue - her hand luggage was already going through the male scanner - chaos ensued.
I've been in female toilets with her when someone called security because they thought there was a man in the ladies loos.
Her whole persona is male - the way she walks, the way she sits, the way she dresses - she doesn't just wear trousers she wears men's suits, men's shirts, men's shoes.
She is sexy and smart but to describe her gender as feminine is laughable.
I love the combination of her female-ness coupled with her masculine persona. It's incredibly sexy.
We can both laugh about her constantly being called "Sir" but that's because we are fortunate to live in a liberated area surrounded by tolerant people. But many people are not so fortunate and face persecution and ostracisation from their society for not fitting tje stereotype of either a masculine or feminine persona.
Non - binary is an incredibly useful term to describe these people who do not fit an exclusively masculine or feminine gender or who express different genders - gender really is not a fixed thing. Get used to it - it's the future.
Oh and ... Piers Morgan is a bigot and a knob.

Original poster
MissBax · 17/05/2017 17:50

onemore - your partner isn't "non binary" though, she's just a woman who expresses herself how you've just described as above. It doesn't make her any more binary or non binary than me or anyone else. She is just a person who dresses and acts how she feels most comfortable.

OP posts:
Orlantina · 17/05/2017 17:53

But many people are not so fortunate and face persecution and ostracisation from their society for not fitting tje stereotype of either a masculine or feminine persona

True - wouldn't it be better if we didn't have stereotypes though?

nauticant · 17/05/2017 17:55

Yes, the same leapt out at me MissBax. She's wholly binary in her sex and very binary in her gender. So, as is typical in this sphere, the words adopted don't actually seem to mean anything.

Orlantina · 17/05/2017 17:55

She is sexy and smart but to describe her gender as feminine is laughable

If someone wears beautiful dresses occasionally and gets glammed up for a smart night out, but then wears jeans and t-shirt the next day, are they non binary?

user1487175389 · 17/05/2017 17:59

its the future. Yeah, and it's also the past and the present. It's just a label for what's been normal for many people for decades - if Enid Blyton was writing today, George would probably be indoors, sat at Uncle Quentin's laptop tweeting about the 'haterz' and her unique identity.

Stereotypes persist through the ages, harming some more than others.

Orlantina · 17/05/2017 18:00

Non - binary is an incredibly useful term to describe these people who do not fit an exclusively masculine or feminine gender or who express different genders

Surely most people are like that?

Floggingmolly · 17/05/2017 18:04

So all we've got there is her penchant for wearing men's suits, onemorecupofcoffee?
Why do you rofl when she's mistaken for a man when she insists on dressing in men's clothing? Confused

CricketRuntAndRashers · 17/05/2017 18:06

But....

Ok. I like martial arts. I like shooting. I like comfortable jeans, boxers and flats. Horses, am not afraid of bugs etc. But I also like makeup, baking, flowers, colourful things, candles etc... This doesn't mean I''m non-binary.

DH for example likes cooking, looking after DD, loved preparing the nursery, loves Christmas, absolutely adores our cat, has a great relationship with his mother etc... But he's still a man. In many ways actually a very stereotypically manly man (and in other ways definitely not).

CricketRuntAndRashers · 17/05/2017 18:07

What I'm trying to say, Onemorecup is, that manywomen do these hings you described. Which means that these can be "womanly" things. Seeing as they are things a woman (in this case) chose to do.

BlueSunGreenMoon · 17/05/2017 18:13

Non - binary is an incredibly useful term to describe these people who do not fit an exclusively masculine or feminine gender or who express different genders - gender really is not a fixed thing. Get used to it - it's the future.

It's not useful. People of both sexes have a range of personalities, mannerisms and dress sense. Nobody is a walking stereotype. Everyone is "non-binary". Gender cannot both be on a spectrum and binary.

I don't believe anyone ever can entirely live up to the stereotypes associated with their sex, particularly as these stereotypes and expectations vary over time and place. Men and women have biological differences, aside from that an individual man and woman can have a whole spectrum of personalities. Anyone can call themselves non-binary for all I care, but demanding that the rest of the world calls them Xi and pretends they don't know if they are male or female is ridiculous and it is thought control and that is where I have a problem with it. That and the fact that it props up gender stereotypes as if they were some kind of inherent truth.

Gender is a social construct. It is true that some people fit more neatly in with masculine stereotypes and others more neatly with feminine, but that is irrelevant to their biological sex. Saying, "Oh I was assigned female at birth but I like to wear men's suits, have short hair and I have a masculine walk and enjoy football, therefore I am not a woman but am non-binary" is just denying biology. Woman means adult human female. That is all. The non-binary label also implies that women who don't choose to label themselves as trans/non-binary etc, are stereotypically feminine. They have a feminine inner essence. They are "binary". It's all a bit "I'm not like other girls...."

olderthanyouthink · 17/05/2017 18:23

Spectrum and binary by their very definitions are mutually exclusive.

A binary eg 0 or 1 can't be a spectrum because there are only 2 options. 0 to 9 would be a spectrum/range

Original poster
MissBax · 17/05/2017 18:25

Don't know whether anyone's watching The Simpsons but it's a rather fitting episode to this chat. All about "boys" and "girls" and Lisa goes undercover as a boy to win a maths competition to show that 'girls can be good at math too'. Was rather entertaining.

OP posts:
Orlantina · 17/05/2017 18:26

Nobody is a walking stereotype

Piers Morgan probably is. Grin

JustDanceAddict · 17/05/2017 18:30

I agree. why can't people like what they like instead of turning it into a 'thing'.

BlueSunGreenMoon · 17/05/2017 18:31

Oh yeah! I meant to say:

Nobody apart from Piers Morgan is a walking stereotype.*

Kursk · 17/05/2017 18:34

OP I agree with your first post, maybe I am too simple but this whole gender thing seems way to complex.