to find vegans really annoying?

[seriouslynowdontbesoearnest]

Just that really. I know a few and my god do they ever preach on and on about their coconut oil macha powder cacao powder chia seed energy balls and milk industry and calves being killed etc. It's the over earnestness and attitude that they are the most enlightened people to walk this planet that wind me up. It reminds me of being 18 again.

I assume you've surveyed all animals to check their grasp of the future? Also, we're animals and we grasp the concept of the future reasonably well, so not sure what you're on about really. One of the silliest things I've ever read on MN.

I have a cows milk allergy myself so I'm fully aware of that, I'm also a beef farmer not a dairy one. Not that I don't support dairy farmers.

If you had never been told of the existence of cancer and had never heard about it then would you worry about it? You wouldn't be able to as you wouldn't know it existed. As animals don't actually know that people eat them then how could they worry about that?
Of course animals understand the actual concept death, I've seen the first hand mourn for their babies if something happens to them and it's heartbreaking. However that's not the point I was making, I said they had no idea they were being raised for meat.
Cows will naturally wean their calves as they get ready to have the next one, they will tell it quite firmly to get lost and chase it off when it tries to suckle. We do wean some earlier than that point as we can't do each one individually as that would take forever but we do it as stress free as possible when the calves are old enough to be sustained on grass and feed alone, usually between 7 & 9 months.

What's silly about it Derxer? You're just taking a swipe without any counter argument aren't you?

Its silly because as far as I'm aware there is no evidence or even theories supporting the idea that animals such as cows have the ability to think about the future, or be aware of their impending death.

I think arguing about whether cows notice AI or not is a bit of a red herring.

They are sentient, the removal of their calves causes distress. Slaughter, no matter how lovingly reared they were, causes distress. Chickens being kept in barns causes them distress. Why would I do something knowing it to cause distress when I don't need to?

In a totally ideal world I would have the sort of miracle finances which would allow me to have a smallholding growing as much of my own produce as I possibly could, buy locally produced grains where I could, and shoot wild pests like rabbit for occasional meat to supplement an otherwise plant based diet. However I'm a working mum in London so that's pretty impractical. Runner up is veganism with fair trade products where they're an option particularly where there are shocking human rights abuses in non-fair trade ones (coffee, chocolate, cashews, bananas etc) so that's what I do.

I don't tell people IRL I'm vegan unless they ask why I'm not eating steak / cake.

Great post Laura. I completely agree with you.

Pink ponies you sound like you have an idealistic view of what you're doing, but in reality you're breeding animals purely to be slaughtered for financial reasons. It doesn't matter if your particular farm is a cow shangri-la, your industry is shameful. And as for saying they don't know people eat them - I honestly don't understand how you've crossed the great linguistic divide between us and other species and established that as fact. Please explain.

Even if they don't, it's common knowledge that animals waiting to be 'processed' at an abattoir are observable in their fear and distress. It's certainly not how I'd want to end my days, even if I'd spent a lifetime frolicking in a field.

I'm with you too Laura.

As far as you're aware, Naska? Are we all supposed to accept that as evidence or something?

Anyway..... Dh went vegan 15 years ago, as I said earlier. I am vegan off and on. We were living abroad and had lunch one day at a mountain restaurant with a tiny little butcher next door where the locals brought in their animals to be killed. We sat there over lunch and watched 2 goats come in. One saw the other being slaughtered and basically fell apart with fear. It was tied up and started that uncontrollable shaking you do if you are in shock. That is what sent DH vegan 100% since then. So they DO know what is about to happen, and that was possibly the best case scenario for them, abbatoir wise.

When we returned to the UK I stopped being vegan because I assumed that our welfare standards are higher etc. I have been off and on since then because I love meat- i love roast chicken, roast lamb etc, and I can disconnect from the reality of it. But the truth that is behind the slaughtering of sentient beings.... well, it sneaks back in.

I am thinking out loud really, but tonight as usual for DH I am cooking a vegan meal (pasta and homemade wild garlic pesto). I often eat the main vegan meal with him, but will eat a chicken sandwich or whatever during the day. I have had 15 years of experience living with a vegan. It's not that massive a jump to just be vegan.

I like alot what Laura said. It encapsulates it for me.

What's silly about it Derxer? What's with the deliberate misspelling of people's user names?

user1487175389

I can't prove a negative - you are the one that claimed that cows might be able to think about the future and somehow know that they're going to die, so how about showing something to back up your opinion, not just conjecture.

I reserve correct spellings for those with logical arguments to make, I guess. Although I didn't realise til now

It's certainly not how I'd want to end my days, even if I'd spent a lifetime frolicking in a field. Many people have hideous protracted end of experiences.

Erm, I'm saying they might, for all the reasons I've already given. We're all just mammals. I don't have to prove that they might - it's enough just to postulate it. If people want to convince me that they definitely don't they'll need to do more than say 'can't prove a negative'.

Of course they do, Derxa. What's that got to do with anything?

*end of life

I don't find vegans annoying unless they spend their time telling me how gross/inhumane/disgusting I am. I mean, I know. There are better uses of your time than reminding me that I'm eating a dead animal. I'm not going to look down at my nuggets and say "Holy shit, this used to be alive?!?!" (I suppose it's questionable with nuggets anyway ). I'm aware that it's dead. I'm aware that some people are opposed to it. If you remind me of how opposed you are every five seconds, I'm only going to enjoy my nuggets more.

You can postulate it all you want but without anything to back it up its not exactly a convincing argument that cows might be aware that they will die and thus negating the positives of higher welfare farming.

The title is AIBU to find vegans annoying. Well when they start postulating that animals in fields are anticipating their deaths and we should do surveys with animals to find out what they think...

Tbf derxa, if anything, this thread proves that vegans are a pretty mixed bag in terms of personality and their reasons for choosing to become vegan.

Someone being vegan is not annoying at all. I completely respect others' choices
It's always the same though. People talking about UK agriculture as if it is the same as the USA's. People going on about animals being raped when they have AI.
I actually hate animal cruelty and in my opinion a swift death is not cruel. That is where we have a fundamental difference of opinion.

I totally agree derxa; some people get a lot of information on veganism from Facebook, vloggers etc who are often based in the USA. Throw in video footage of some piss poor farming practice and it's easy to lump all farms in together.

Basically, I think vegans and non vegans alike should do their research properly before making any judgements about how they feel about how other people eat.

Fwiw, I've read posts which display shallow thinking and dodgy logic on this thread from vegans, as well as non vegans.

Have a look at Emily from bite size vegan on agriculture in ireland and you cant kid yourself that it doesnt happen here.

Thanks Laura. You express things perfectly

Why would I do something knowing it to cause distress when I don't need to?

Laura, you are on the internet, which means that you use electronics that use the rare mineral coltan, which is incredibly arduous to mine, and which has fueled a civil war in the Congo. The manufacturing process for the laptops and phones both you and I use have undoubtably caused distress during that manufacture to many actual people, not cows. And yet we carry on using them - we've made a conscious choice that balances our needs and wants against other people's needs and wants. People, not cows.

Do you ever go on a plane? Do you drive? Do you know what climate change is doing, and will do, to many people's livelihoods and homes? Do you know what it is doing to animal habitats, and what it will do? Do you have any idea of the distress that this will generate? And do you choose to get on a plane, or get in a car, anyway?

We all make constant decisions which determine how ethically we live our lives, whether conciously or not. If you are making some choices that you think takes you further along the ethical path, along the path of causing the least distress, then fine, good on you. But don't be under any illusion that this makes you someone who magically escapes causing distress to other living beings, because it doesn't.