Junior rugby tour - am I prudish and uptight?

[reallyneedmoresleep]

I've just spent last weekend on rugby tour with DS (almost 13). I was one of only 4 mums there - most kids were with their dads or a "nominated adult ".
I know laddish behaviour is to be expected on rugby tour but most of the dads were seriously hammered from before we even got on the coach in our home town - and the kids were all helping themselves to beer and cider too. The dads thought it was all highly amusing but these kids were 12,13 and 14.
DS didn't want to drink anything and ended up not being part of the boys' social group all weekend . This was ok but on the last day it escalated to him being thrown to the ground several times and then when he started crying the other boys nicked his shoes and tied them out of reach, only giving them back when I intervened. The coaches did nothing -- just carried on drinking their beer.
So, AIBU to think that this is all a bit much? Or am I being overprotective and uptight? What would you have done in my situation?

Sounds like parents trying to recreate their wild rugby-playing student days within their kids club. Totally inappropriate so YANBU.

Although given some of utterly grim things the rugby clubs I know have got up to, those parents probably think this is pretty tame .

I'm not criticising kids who play union - it's great that they do it. What I'm saying is that there is a culture of poor behaviour by rugby union players who wouldn't get away with it in other circumstances. If you don't believe me, just ring a local hotel, say you're booking a rugby club annual dinner, and see what their reaction is.

Rugby union. We're based in SE England. Not in the New Forest. It was a club tour, nothing to do with school.
Thanks so much for all your replies- I instinctively felt it was all so wrong!
I think I do need to escalate although am a bit worried about repercussions for DS who goes to school with several boys who were on the tour. Also so many of the men on the tour are lovely men just not very responsible

I take Guides away on holiday/camp, so I'm a vetted volunteer as are the other leaders.

We occasionally have a glass or two of wine after the girls are laughing loudly in their tents in bed but there is always at least one adult who does not drink and who can drive. We'd be hung, drawn, and quartered if we allowed 12-14 year old Guides to drink.

In fact, there was a parent complaint a while ago about a leader who was sharing a tent and a girl came in the night with a small easily solved problem. One of the leaders in the tent did not wake and the parent complained that the leader had been drunk and incapable (in fact she was exhausted and had earplugs in, having drunk one glass of wine!). Our County Commissioner told us we'd followed exactly the right procedures and told the parent where to go.

So while I know some of you are saying parent helpers/coaches/chaperones should not drink at all, I'd say in moderation, following any applicable rules, and with sufficient on-duty adults it is fine. To excess and involving the children - absolutely no way.

That is disgusting. I don't care if it's league, union or tiddlywinks - what kind of father encourages 12- and 13-year-olds to get drunk? Vile.

lovely men just not very responsible

That doesn't compute.

i haven't responded Somerville because I've been away from the thread and hadn't read what the other poster had written

And they weren't encouraging the boys to get drunk but they weren't really stopping them from nicking their beers. Not much of a difference in my eyes but there probably was in theirs

We are SE England too and this absolutely wouldn't happen with us. We are a flagship club for safeguarding in our local area so our welfare officer is pretty hot on anything like this, they are constantly monitoring the coaches and volunteers.

I would email the welfare officer at your club (you have to have one so they should be easy to track down) and copy in the Chair of the committee too. This sort of thing should not be allowed to happen.

If you want to pm me I am happy to ask our welfare officer for further info on what she would recommend you to do.

Somer looked to me like she was asking a genuine question rather than casting aspersions. Perhaps it would be wise to clarify someone's intent before jumping to conclusions about what you've inferred from their post?

Anyhoo - OP definitely report and move clubs. Lots of posters on here saying that this isn't normal behaviour. I'd definitely be concerned about the adults who are supposed to be supervising getting pissed instead. What happens if there's an accident or something goes wrong? Difficult to keep a clear head and sort things out if you've been on the ale all day.

I'd be interested to know where(ish) too.

We were at a tour in Devon on the BH weekend. Our squad is younger than this, so drinking was not an issue with our lot.

There were older squads there from other teams, and they all came with bottles of lager etc and I wasn't massively impressed, but not my kid...
As far as I know they didn't cause any issues, but still.. it's not necessary.

What I wasn't impressed with tho was the fact that on all 3 nights we had groups of kids running up and down until the small hours knocking on doors, shouting etc. I did wonder where the hell their parents were and was a bit pissed off that I'd taken responsibility for my DS as had the other 2 mums with their boys and others just let their kids run riot inconveniencing others.

I totally agree with the thing about the behaviour of some parents, some of them were waiting for the transfer bus at like 10am/11am with a bacon butty in one hand and a can in the other. Classy It was a boozefest for some from start to finish.

Oh yes dear reader, I judged. A LOT.

OP, your comment: This was ok but on the last day, it escalated to him being thrown to the ground several times and then when he started crying the other boys nicked his shoes and tied them out of reach, only giving them back when I intervened

This is really bad and for this reason and the response from the Head, I would actively look to move clubs.

I had a situation a few years ago where during training one of the lads had sworn at my ds and made a nasty comment about his appearance. I raised it as I felt that the sessions are to BUILD and BOND a team - which is vital in Rugby. The club responded way more effectively than I could have ever imagined. Ours is a good club, it's so important.

If your DS goes on tour again, he might not need/want you there, but you won't trust the current coaching team to look out for him. I'd scale this complaint up and make your points very clear as to why you are not happy with what has happened.

Thanks for clarifying, really.

I'm linking the guidance document from RFU. Section 12 is on tours, and these are the pertinent parts:

Age Grade tours are for children and young people to enjoy first and foremost in a safe and appropriate environment for them. Whilst it is acknowledged that tours are an excellent way to build team spirit, visit other areas and experience other cultures, Age Grade tours are not an excuse for adults to recreate what many perceive to be the traditions of touring as an adult.

The behaviour historically associated with some touring parties, whether an adult or Age Grade tour, does not reflect the values of the game or the reputation with which the vast majority of people involved in rugby union would want to be associated. Organising a tour takes a lot of time and commitment and is a big responsibility. All adults involved are expected to take their responsibility seriously. For more information on arranging a tour, please see the Tour Guidance and Checklist, and the RFU “Touring with Children”30 guide before starting. Reference should also be made to RFU Regulation 10, Regulation 15.6.6 and Regulation 15.10 and the England Rugby Tours page31...

There have been numerous safeguarding incidents occurring whilst clubs are on tour both in England and whilst visiting other countries; these are taken very seriously by the RFU Safeguarding and Discipline teams who take action against clubs and individuals. This has led to sanctions being imposed as well as bars32 being issued preventing individuals taking part in the game.

I would be complaining in the strongest possible terms to both the club safeguarding officer and the RFU.

I'm also interested from those who've said it what "laddish behaviour" is "expected" on rugby tours and acceptable? Would it have been alright if the boys weren't drinking but were making sexist comments about girls?

Apologies, here's the guidance link

I am in the Southern US and that kind of behavior would hit the local TV news and would probably lead to charges of 'endangering the safety of a minor' or similar.

I don't care whether people are volunteers or not, you don't supervise children at any point while drunk, and you absolutely don't let the children get into alcohol at that age. If you aren't willing to follow those very basic safety rules then you have no business volunteering in that role. I can't think of any volunteer roles where people are going to be happy with you getting drunk tbh.

Totally unacceptable - these people are not fit to be in charge of 12/13 year olds

It does sound the sort of stuff which went on at my sons rugby club and no, it isn't right at all. 'Unfortunately it does seem that the dads 'on tour' feel less responsibility towards their charges than us mums do and often, when my own son went away, his dad and other coaches would be sozzled and the lads left to their own devices. It was seen as the norm and because no one got hurt, and 'what happens on tour stays on tour' the behaviour was considered reasonable.

It has changed over the past couple of years and my club says all players must be accompanied by an adult when under 15 but as the tours get more expensive, how many families will be able to afford to send 2 members away overnight./weekend ?!

I am the Safeguarding Officer at my local rugby club, and am genuinely shocked by this! If I got wind that even a fraction of what you're saying went on in my club I'd be obliged to put in a formal report for it to be fully investigated.

Children that age should NOT be given alcohol on these tours, nor should they be made to feel uncomfortable or be bullied. You have a duty to raise this with your SO - who in turn has a duty to get an investigation underway.

Terrible behaviour! The 'responsible' adults should not be getting drunk when looking after children. Maybe have an odd glass of wine in the evening, but not getting drunk.

What everyone else has said. Not acceptable. Complain to the club safeguarding officer and move to a club that has better values. One of my DCs has just come. Sick from your and no way would that have happened. Yes a tour is a social event. Some parents and some of the older U18s (aged 18) were drinking but younger players weren't and those that weren't didn't get bullied.

Gumbo do you have a link for the tours with children guidance PDF, for OP? I've dug out the RFU guidance that I got when I went on a tour, but it's a few years out of date (refers to CRB rather than DBS).

really The tours guidelines I have explicitly mentions alcohol several times.

Ensure there is no access to alcohol for children.
(Could hardly be any clearer!)

And...
Adults Consumption of Alcohol
If adults are going to be drinking alcohol once the children are in bed, all adults should be sensible and responsible.

I have two boys who play rugby. Dh took ds (16) on tour last year and he said the dads were encouraging the boys to drink. This was just a few weeks before GCSEs as well. However I've never heard of it so young and I think you should complain to the club's safeguarding officer.
Kids love rugby tours but I'm a bit concerned about some of the things I've seen. We had to pull out of ds's tour a couple of years ago because I was taking him with dd and we were asked to share a chalet with another dad and his son. Apart from me feeling uncomfortable there was no way I was letting my dd (who was then 6) share a chalet with a man we'd never met! But apparently I was being difficult . There was also another boy (13) who was allowed to go without his parents. As no one had filed in any information about medical details or given any consent to give first aid etc the club would have been on shaky ground if he'd been seriously injured , which is something you always have to consider in rugby.

Imagine the outcry if mums routinely took early teenage daughters on rugby/other sporting tours and encouraged them to drink. It'd probably make newspaper headlines.

There is absolutely no way this would be tolerated at our rugby club.

Dh runs the Junior Section and has coached all ages from Micros through to U16s. We take a dim view of encouraging drinking - or of bullying or ostracising, which is what you have described.

Ds is temporarily currently playing U18 at another club: he is only 16 but has had the odd can of beer on the way back from more distant away games. There definitely isn't a "drinking" culture - most of these boys take their rugby too seriously . A few of the boys can now legally buy their own beer - but they're actually the ones more teased for it amongst their team mates!

Definitely look into another club - not only were the attitudes on tour inappropriate but the attitude of the head coach is unforgivable. What he is condoning bullying.

BTW - whoever mentioned the GB governing body: there isn't one. The SRU, RFU and WRU (and IRU) are all separate. However, they all take safeguarding seriously.

Also, in almost all clubs, the coaches are "just" parents and volunteers. I know the SRU expects Minis (primary school - roughly up to U12) coaches to have done UKCC1 and the Midis coaches (U13 to U18) to have done UKCC2 rugby coaching courses if you are lucky the club will pay for it but as a minimum you have to have done the "Rugby Right" (I think that's what it is called now) online course, which covers safety.

I hope this works:

www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/General/General/01/31/60/13/SafeguardingUpdates_RFU_Version3_colour_English.pdf

Also, within the second link it states:
www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/MyRugby/Volunteers/01/30/36/55/RFU_Safeguarding_Policy_Guidance_and_Procedures_Neutral.pdf

Alcohol
It is important that all rugby clubs’ management committees
take considered, positive action to ensure that they are
responsible licensees.
It is against the law:
• To sell alcohol to someone under 18
• For an adult to buy or attempt to
buy alcohol on behalf of someone under 18
For someone under 18 to buy alcohol, attempt to buy
alcohol or to be sold alcohol
• For someone under 18 to drink alcohol in licensed
premises, with one exception - 16 and 17 year olds
accompanied by an adult can drink but not buy beer,
wine and cider with a table meal
• For an adult to buy alcohol for a person under 18 for
consumption on licensed premises, except as above
At training sessions and games for children, adults’ drinking
habits may affect both children’s attitude to alcohol and their
emotional well-being. As role models adults should avoid
excessive drinking in their presence.
The unexpected can always happen; there should always be
adults who abstain from drinking alcohol to deal with any
emergencies and to manage the safety and welfare of children
in their care.