To wish the EU would stop being so arsey with us!

[GreatAuntPrudish]

Juncker is an utter prick - leaking details of the dinner at No.10.
Then there's Barnier, Hollande and other EU officials warning us how ugly it's going to get.

Poland and France wanting to extract every last billion out of us!

They're playing into May's hands - giving her the opportunity to look like the Boudicca of the 21st century when she is actually an utterly useless PM.

I wish they'd show some consideration for the 48%

I'm a Remainer - still want to stay in EU - but it's starting to piss me off so there's little chance the leavers who were starting to wobble will want to stay now.

The Daily Mail are relishing it

The UK isn't regarded as a laughing stock where I am in Belgium, neither is it where dh works Bigchoc. Dh goes flying in Germany, and quite a few of his flying buddies who are German can see why the UK wants out, so I think you might be little adrift in your assertions.

Why in the name of all that is good didn't the 48% mobilise and demand another referendum when so many of the 52% had changed their minds ...

I'm surprised to see the continued insistence that so many have "changed their minds"; if that was the case, isn't it a bit surprising that the Conservatives did so well yesterday?

I realise it's a done deal now and that we've moved beyond the original question, but given the inclination to look for someone else to blame for any set of circumstances, I wouldn't have expected them to do so well if huge numbers really did regret voting to leave

Well, maybe you think they are being arsey.
So what?
You opted out.
And now you're out.

From the point of view of other EU nations, the UK may be seen as a nation of cherry picking bastards.

Do you get mad if businesses refuse to give you special terms?

That would depend on the business; after all, it's a regular thing for companies who do well out of particular customers to offer them favourable terms - though admittedly there'd be no need for them to do so if they know the customer is going elsewhere

Anyway, many of us genuinely don't expect "special" terms from the EU ... merely fair ones

Its just this whole ex-empire mentality, isn't it?
You held a quarter of the world to ransom once, and you've never gotten past it.
Little England, not Great Britain.

BigChocFrenzy

It maybe a standard sample size, but then maybe that explains why so many polls are bullshit

I think it's worth remembering that you are receiving those EU comments as framed by the British media, most of them either hostile to the EU. Brexit critical media will be tempted to talk up the negativity to prove they were correct in their predictions.
So there is lots in tone and content which is not actually being reported in the British press. For example, the UK are at this very moment blocking an important budget decision the EU (including UK ) has been working on for months. Ostensibly it's because of the election, but in Europe it's perceived as aggressive posturing ahead of the negotiations.
The gist of the original article in the FAZ (a fairly conservative German broadsheet) was not aggressive at all, but it emphasised the dismay of the EU party when the huge gulf between the two sides became apparent during the dinner. The extent was so great that the EU side questioned whether TM had actually been briefed on the realities.
Yes, the leak was tactical, but I do not think it was meant to be understood as threatening. I think there is a feeling on the EU side that the British public are not being properly informed, and that UK politicians are kidding themselves about the European position (and indeed the strength of the UK's hand), and that TM has been fostering false expectations.
I see no threats of throwing anyone under a bus. On the contrary, the EU side speak of all 4 million expats who need to be protected during the negotiations.
Another example, the bill. The numbers bandied about are certainly a matter of negotiation, but TM and her cronies have been bragging in the RW press about walking away without paying anything at all - Davies actually said as much during the dinner (gist: "We may legally owe something, but who's going to make us pay?")! So there was a firm response. None of that is dickish or aggressive.

The language used in Britain about the upcoming negotiations has been pretty brusque and deliberately "tough", with the open admission that you have to appear to play hardball at the outset. Well, what did they think the response was going to be?

scary Your European connections seem to be military and private military contractors, who are not a typical subset of the population. They have some different priorities to civilians.

btw, the 2% NATO spending target is unpopular in Germany and other EU countries.
So politicians have been listening to the public, who prefer to spend that on public services they feel benefit them more.
If the public wanted 2% for the military, they'd soon get it.

The Eurosceptic AfD in Germany collapsed to 8% because Martin Schultz returned from a successful career in Brussels to lead the SPD.
If there is no one to represent people who are struggling, then they will turn to extremes. When a major mainstream politician comes to represent them, then those voters switch back.

Lesson learned: don't abandon those left behind in the economic rat race, or society deserves the revenge they will reap.

Where I work, colleagues from India and S Korea also relate jokes about the UK that are circulating in their home countries.
India is also circulating some very bitter stories now about life under the British Raj
I gather that many there want their pound of flesh when it comes to negotiations.

I was looking at the comments of a poster on another board who lives in Italy Bananagio and his take was that where he is, people want out of the EU, the young are leaving in droves as there is no future for them any more, there is political and economic crisis, and personal finances are on the brink for many people. Perhaps it's like the UK, it all depends where you live and who you mix with as to what points of view you will get.

I think the main difference I find with how the UK and Italy see the EU is that the former is currently seeing things in terms of black and white and the latter in shades of grey. I live in Rome, a capital city which has been bought to its knees by domestic corruption in the domestic corridors of power. Employment prospects for the young are dire, rents are extortionate and usually far higher than the average wage. I have discussed Brexit with people I meet from all walks of life, from all areas of Italy because as soon as they realize I am English they dive straight in with the -what ARE you guys doing line of questioning. I have not heard one person not be critical of the EU, I have heard huge complaints regarding the rest of the EU(and particularly Britain it has to be said) re the pathetic response to assisting them with the refugee crisis. And yet not one of them thinks Italy should leave, they generally think we are "odd",have an "island mentality" and are harking back to our days of Empire. They also very much recognize that a huge part of Italy's problems are caused by domestic issues. Very very different to the crap I read on my timelines from people back in the small Leave town I am from the U.K. where it seems the norm to think that all problems stem from the fact Junker hates us. Not one comment ever about domestic policy. And for what it's worth I heard the same opinions from Sicilans I met on a recent trip there as the ones I hear in Rome. It is far far more common here to think the EU has big issues and needs reform while wholeheartedly believing in the ethos behind it, recognizing the challenges of bringing a continent of 27 different countries together and believing that it is better to be in than out.

I want to remain. I however don't want to be part of an EU Army.

However I hate all this negativity. Were leaving. Were going to have to take the hit as are the EU. We will find it hard. The EU understand that by making us an example they stand a better chance of keeping the EU together.....through fear! I don't want to stay somewhere out of fear!

Financially were going to be hung drawn and almost quartered but let's make the best of a bad job. Negativity and inward fighting does not make for a strong resilient country.

Rinkydinky be absolutely clear being 'financially hung drawn and quartered' will be the result of primarily of leaving the single market and the customs union. That is the choice of our government not the EU, who would be happy for us to stay on both if we accepted the rules.

The UK should indeed negotiate for fair terms
but fair = comparable to other countries, hopefully a bit better

No country has all the benefits the UK govt wants, without accepting in return the things it doesn't want.

Roughly 2 kinds of possible Brexit deal:

Norway-type: Keeping same access to single market for UK goods and services - BUT means accepting Freedom of Movement and European Court of Justice
OR
Canada-type: much worse access for UK goods and no access for UK services (80% of U.K. exports) - BUT can end EU immigration and would not be under the ECJ

An alternative is to crash out without any deal, also no obligations

So WTO terms - and hope none of the other 190 WTO countries block the UK's quotas and schedules.
Unfortunately the UK has enemies - Argentina, some former colonies, Russia - and about 40 others who want revenge because the UK was "arsey" about terms when those 40 applied to jointhe WTO.

Also, the WTO doesn't handle services, so that's 80% of UK exports

The WTO option is looking more likely:

Any deal can be vetoed by the EU Parliament or 38 national and regional parliaments

Remember that Germans, French, Italians, Belgiums etc can read the UK press too and some are getting pissed about what is being said about their countries and their politicians.
The UK may already have shot itself in the foot with this.
Great for winning the GE though.

Not being given a special deal, a better deal than any other country, in or out of the EU
is NOT "Punishment"

I have discussed Brexit with people I meet from all walks of life, from all areas of Italy because as soon as they realize I am English they dive straight in with the -what ARE you guys doing line of questioning. I have not heard one person not be critical of the EU, I have heard huge complaints regarding the rest of the EU(and particularly Britain it has to be said) re the pathetic response to assisting them with the refugee crisis. And yet not one of them thinks Italy should leave, they generally think we are "odd",have an "island mentality" and are harking back to our days of Empire. They also very much recognize that a huge part of Italy's problems are caused by domestic issues.

This tallies absolutely with my experience. I can validate all of this. A key difference is that Italy has not had years of anti-EU propaganda relentlessly pumped through the media. They've had a lot of other nonsense from Berlusconi, but not that.

nancy totally agree re the media. My Italian dh spent some years in the UK in the 90s/early 00's so waaaaay before all this started and always commented on that. Along with the general slight distrust of foreigners he experienced compared to other places he lived in Europe. 2 areas which have been harnessed to great effect over the last year. Also agree with you re Berlusconi although do see parallels with his bread and circuses approach to TV in the U.K.

I'm reading Road to Somewhere (heartily recommend). Goodhart suggests that one of the reasons for the particular UK view of the EU is our relatively stable political situation over the last few centuries (no dictatorships or occupations), which is different to say France, Germany, Italy. I think he may have something there, and personally, I don't see this as something we should be ashamed of, the reverse really.

That makes sense wrong

I read a fascinating book called the politics of geography and the bit at the end of Europe (going from memory as i have lent it to ds) was saying that part of the image of the EU is that since it started we havent had any wars between european countries.

I thought that was interesting, we may well have 'matured' and not had any wars without the EU. But its all about perception isnt it

Can you add a little more detail to what you think would be fair? What would that look like to you?

A lot of it is hard to say until we get some real negotiations instead of political grandstanding, but in principle I'd like a settlement which reflects the benefits we've all brought to each other - and hopefully can continue to in future - without unnecessary straitjackets imposed on the basis of selfish ideologies

I completely realise this wouldn't be easy to get, but it doesn't stop me wanting it

But in effect the UK wants all the benefits without any of the responsibilities, sadly that's not how real life works want the benefits of the single market you will have to accept you need to pay for it and in this case the payment is in cash to the EU and freedom of movement for goods services and people.

And if you don't want to pay that we don't get the benefit and sadly I don't think any nation will choose to side with the UK over the EU in any resulting trade war (EU economic markets is soo much greater then little england) and nations would be stupid to choose to deal with such a small economy if EU said it's on or the other...

Most informed people believe the tone of the negotiations s will improve once the real talking starts.

I have heard a lot about what WTO terms would mean to the Uk, much less about the consequences to Europe. It would be less, but would it be evenly distributed, and would it precipitate a pan European recession? Has the commission costed it?

Perhaps Bigchoc you'd like to point out to me which private military contractors I know, as there are none in my address book. You need to stop making incorrect assumptions, and assertions.

If the 2% GDP is so unpopular, then why don't those countries who dislike it, leave NATO, and pay even more to set up a pan European military with its own standardisation, troops and equipment, run by Mogherini via the EEAS and controlled by Juncker? They would also have to renounce the shelter of the nuclear umbrella afforded by NATO, and the Article 5 protection as well, plus the backing of the US.

Defence is a public service and benefit, and if it is not there, you have problems.

As for the UK being a laughing stock, not amongst my teacher, hospitality industry, diplomatic, car industry and civil servant friends. Whilst they regret the decision the UK has made, they can see reasons for it.

Wrong I agree with the book, and that actually, given Article 5 of the Washington Treaty, NATO has maintained the peace in Europe, not the EU. In fact, reading some of Mogherini's recent speeches in which she claims the EU is a superpower, one can see echoes of Barosso's assertion that the EU had most of the trappings of empire.

The tone of the negotiations could hardly become any worse.

A lack of a deal with the EU will have disastrous consequences for the UK. The effect on the EU will be very limited in comparison.

The problem is that the EU currently holds all the cards and the UK now needs excellent negotiators. Unfortunately, intransigence makes Theresa May completely unsuitable for the role. Negotiation is simply not within her nature. She will be completely incapable of striking a deal.

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