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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wish the EU would stop being so arsey with us!

377 replies

GreatAuntPrudish · 04/05/2017 08:26

Juncker is an utter prick - leaking details of the dinner at No.10.
Then there's Barnier, Hollande and other EU officials warning us how ugly it's going to get.

Poland and France wanting to extract every last billion out of us!

They're playing into May's hands - giving her the opportunity to look like the Boudicca of the 21st century when she is actually an utterly useless PM.

I wish they'd show some consideration for the 48%

I'm a Remainer - still want to stay in EU - but it's starting to piss me off so there's little chance the leavers who were starting to wobble will want to stay now.

The Daily Mail are relishing it Angry

OP posts:
squoosh · 04/05/2017 20:37

'I know you said, and I explained why I think it isn't a good explanation.'

Come on then, what's your explanation?

CricketFishieDHAndI · 04/05/2017 20:39

mellast

they are not negotiating in good faith. There is a distinction of trying to get the best deal for the citizens of the EU (which is what they should be doing. that's what's meant by good faith) and punishing the UK

If leaving the EU is seen as something good for the country doing it? That is a bad deal for the citizens of the EU. Which is why it isn't punishing the UK. A good deal for the UK = bad for the EU and EU citizens.

Blowingthroughthejasmineinmymi · 04/05/2017 20:46

I disagree Cricket and I find the whole notion of punishment abhorrent.

Wouldn't everyone much rather the EU simply made itself so wonderful we would still be desperate to be part of it?
I cant think of any "club" that punishes members for leaving. Well, I suppose the clandestine types do....and of course the nastier types of Ideologies do, North Korea etc.

I find it bizarre that anyone is OK with this.

The UK is totally different to the other EU Nations, and as have oft been noted, we have always been chaffing at the bit. We have different Geography, strengths and weaknesses compared to all the other Nations. These have simply proved to be largely in compatible with the EU. Other Nations however are perfectly suited to it and remain and benefit from it.

smallchanceofrain · 04/05/2017 20:48

Bloody EU27, defending their interests by ganging up on the poor little UK. The big bullies!

It's almost as if they are in some kind of union or something! Grin

Wanders off looking confused....

CricketFishieDHAndI · 04/05/2017 20:57

Blowing

It's not a punishment. It's a natural consequence.

If leaving is better then staying others may leave as well... That can't happen (at least in the opinion of "the EU").

CricketFishieDHAndI · 04/05/2017 20:59

I'm not even "pro-EU" (...)

But this seems incredibly obvious to me and I personally find it utterly bizarre that anybody didn't understand it to begin with (and still doesn't understand it now). I'm not trying to be rude or insult you, but it simply seems incredibly obvious to me personally.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 04/05/2017 21:03

Punishing

How are they punishing us?

Its a bit of an emotive word isnt is?

Amperoblue · 04/05/2017 21:04

We are still European though even if not part of the EU. We have a shared history since, well recorded history.
I agree that if the EU is stood for the other members why does it matter if we go? Surely the whole thing rests on it being a better opportunity in then out. So why would they worry about other nations quitting?

mellast · 04/05/2017 21:10

Come on then, what's your explanation?

First, I don't think she is a fascist because I don't throw that word around easily. It's a serious description.

I think they are voting for her because they are angry. They are angry about jobs and immigration and a system that has repeated said their concerns about globalisation aren't important. She, Brexit and Trump are a big f* you to all of that. I don't think Le Pen will help their cause (as won't Brexit or Trump), but business as usual hasn't helped for 20 years.

fevversbetterout · 04/05/2017 21:10

Big Treeza didn't always have the screechy attitude she had yesterday. Recently she had a whole other point of view.

CricketFishieDHAndI · 04/05/2017 21:14

Because the whole thing rests on it being a better opportunity in then out.

If the UK is allowed to get a better deal than staying in would have been? Then the whole thing rests on... very little.

mellast · 04/05/2017 21:14

If leaving is better then staying others may leave as well...

so others might leave because they think it will be better for their countries too? But the EU knows what's better for everyone because...?

Yes, that's a threat. and if the EU is more important than the citizens of the EU, punishing Britain should be their first priority.

A good deal for both parties is entirely possible. Canada just negotiated a trade agreement with the EU. A treaty that both parties, presumably, thought was beneficial. Mutually beneficial trade agreements are possible.

SomethingBorrowed · 04/05/2017 21:16

I cant think of any "club" that punishes members for leaving
I can think of plenty of situations where you have to pay penalties if you want to leave / cancel an agreement you had.
Phone, mortgage, nursery...

Blowingthroughthejasmineinmymi · 04/05/2017 21:18

If leaving is better then staying others may leave as well... That can't happen (at least in the opinion of "the EU"

This is hilarious I feel we have all fallen down a rabbit hole. If leaving is better for us, why shouldn't we leave and if other countries would also benefit from leaving why on earth shouldn't they leave?

I thought the point was the EU was supposed to be a good thing?
Why on earth is anyone even talking about punishment or how we must be held up as an example.

The EU should itself be this wonderful amazing sleek well oiled machine that massively benefits its members, It should be clear and transparent with its aims and quick to move when it makes massive errors.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 04/05/2017 21:18

This is a C&P from the another angry voice blog and its an older article

After the Brexit vote the Tory government spent six months fobbing the public off with meaningless platitudes like "Brexit means Brexit" as they desperately tried to cobble together some kind of Brexit negotiating stance.

After half a year of blabbering excuses and pathetic distraction tactics Theresa May finally announced that her long-awaited negotiating tactic was going to be the diplomatic equivalent of a toddler tantrum.

In her January 2017 clown costume speech she demanded all kinds of implausible things, like an end to free movement but special access to the Single Market for favoured sectors of the UK economy and a quickfire trade deal to be negotiated in parallel with the exit agreement, and before the rights of EU citizens living in the UK have even been secured. She made it clear that if the EU didn't cave in to her ridiculous demands, the Tory government would set about turning the UK into a low-skill, low-tech, low-wage, low-welfare, low-regulation corporate tax haven in retaliation.

It was the diplomatic equivalent of a toddler shrieking that if they don't get the whole tub of ice cream they'll smash up their own bedroom, and then the adults will all be sorry.

Of course anyone with kids, or experience of kids, will know that the last thing you do in the face of a screaming toddler tantrum is to give in to their demands. If you do that, you reinforce the behaviour by teaching the child that having a massive strop is an effective way of getting what they want.

If the EU caved in to Theresa May's ridiculous demands, they would just be inviting her to resort to threats and extortion at every diplomatic juncture from then on.

A major problem for Theresa May is that she's not just having a toddler tantrum to one adult, she's doing it in front of 27, and not a single one of them has given any indication that they intend to give in and give her what she wants.

The EU's draft negotiating strategy has explicitly ruled out sectoral Single Market access for favoured UK corporations (the ones with the financial power to bribe/coerce the Tory government into defending their interests), and they've also ruled out a quickfire trade deal until after the separation agreement and the rights of EU citizens in the UK have been agreed. All 27 remaining member states have indicated that they will sign up to it, meaning Theresa May's demands for all the ice cream are being denied by everyone in the room, with nobody willing to even negotiate about ice cream until the tantrum behaviour subsides.

This leaves Theresa May and the UK in a really desperate position. The Tory government should probably try to climb down from their threats, then try a belated charm offensive in order to try to at least get a small portion of the ice cream.

But it's obviously very late in the day for that if they've even managed to turn fellow hard-right governments like Spain and Poland against them with their diplomatic toddler tantrum.

It's obvious that the Tories should have been trying to build allegiances from the beginning, not hardening the resolve of the rest of Europe by using the lives of EU citizens in the UK as bargaining chips and making the centrepiece of their negotiating stance the threat of triggering a mutually ruinous nuclear Brexit by stropping away from the negotiating table with nothing.

The other option for the Tories is to actually follow through on their threat to smash up their own bedroom by turning the UK into a universally despised hard-right corporate tax haven economy, and completely wrecking workers' rights, the welfare system, and the NHS in order to pay for it.

Of course the fanatical hard-right fringe of the Tory party would love an economically ruinous "no deal" nuclear Brexit to happen because it's what they've been demanding all along.

Right-wing propaganda rags like the Express, Daily Mail and S*n would love that outcome too. But anyone with any sense at all should be capable of seeing that if Theresa May reacts to the unity of the EU 27 by intensifying her tantrum and smashing up her own bedroom, the people to suffer the worst of the consequences won't be wealthy Tory MPs and comfortable right-wing hacks, it will be ordinary people.

The EU 27 are absolutely right to show resolve in the face of Theresa May's tantrum, and it's now up to the British people, and British businesses to try to prevent her from escalating it into self-destruct mode.

What you can do

Write to your MP to make it clear that the threat of a mutually ruinous "no deal" strop is an unacceptably poor diplomatic negotiating position.

Avoid voting for hard-right candidates at the upcoming local elections. If they support Theresa May's crude threat-based "negotiating strategy", consider voting for a candidate who isn't so keen for her to gamble so recklessly with the lives and livelihoods of ordinary people.

Boycott jingoistic extreme-right newspapers like the Express, Daily Mail and S*n that are pushing the UK towards an economically ruinous "no deal" cliff edge Brexit. Don't buy their papers, and don't share links to their websites.

Blowingthroughthejasmineinmymi · 04/05/2017 21:21

I can think of plenty of situations where you have to pay penalties if you want to leave / cancel an agreement you had

Pay a penalty for any services already rendered yes.

Being hauled out, threatened, patronized....NO

Unless of course you have had particularly nasty dealings with such places Confused Perhaps a Miss Trunchball type marching out with your resignation letter " So....you want to leave us do you Borrowed, feel your kid would do better elsewhere do you...

Because mostly its a simple I want to go - here ££ Bye.

StrangeLookingParasite · 04/05/2017 21:23

Why do so many non-fascists support a fascist?

She is a fascist, and if you support her, then you support a fascist. I have read her policies, as well as Macron's, and she is all empty appeals to nationalist sentiment, including some truly stupid ideas, like restoring the franc but keeping the euro as well, so having two currencies. Honestly, did she even think about how that could possibly be done, not to mention the cost of the insane idea.
She has also mentioned banning dual citizenship, with specific reference to Israeli citizenship. She is her father, with a wig, and a really thin, easily peeled off veneer.

Blowingthroughthejasmineinmymi · 04/05/2017 21:23

just

^^ what utter drivel.

GraceGrape · 04/05/2017 21:37

did she even think about how that could possibly be done, not to mention the cost of the insane idea

Sounds like Brexit!

CricketFishieDHAndI · 04/05/2017 21:38

mellast
blowing

I understand why you may object to this line of thinking for ethical or moral reasons.. But it was imo from the beginnig incredibly obvious that this would be the outcome.

Which is why I don't understand why anybody is surprised.

A good deal for both parties is entirely possible. Canada just negotiated a trade agreement with the EU. A treaty that both parties, presumably, thought was beneficial. Mutually beneficial trade agreements are possible.

Canada didn't have Brexit. It's not comparable in any way. Switzerland has beneficial relationships with the EU as well. But yet again, no Brexit.

Lweji · 04/05/2017 21:54

Because mostly its a simple I want to go - here ££ Bye.

The problem here is that the UK doesn't want to leave and wave bye bye. You still want trade deals and for your citizens to continue going to the EU with ease.
On top of that, you leaving presents costs. And why should the EU have to meet them?

Redactio · 04/05/2017 23:01

"on top of that, you leaving presents costs. And why should the EU have to meet them?"
I don't think that the UKG disputes that, but some of the ideas coming from EU countries sound like they want the UK to keep paying for somethings without deriving any benefit - just to save the remaining 27 from digging into their pockets. Also there is the question of the UK share of EU assets that have been built up with the aid of UK contributions.

LondonNicki · 04/05/2017 23:29

Today 13:20 purits

Ignorant uninformed and inarticulate.

I presume that you wouldn't say the same about the Greek Finance Minister. Would you care to comment on his article.

I not really sure what article you are referring to?
If you mean I should be concerning myself with Greek financial policy - no I am not.

dinosaursandtea · 04/05/2017 23:31

If we leave the EU, we leave the EU. All the benefits that go with that go as well. It's entirely up to them if they want to negotiate with us - and May has given them no reason to want to...

LondonNicki · 04/05/2017 23:38

Yup. That's basically it sadly.