To wish the EU would stop being so arsey with us!

[GreatAuntPrudish]

Juncker is an utter prick - leaking details of the dinner at No.10.
Then there's Barnier, Hollande and other EU officials warning us how ugly it's going to get.

Poland and France wanting to extract every last billion out of us!

They're playing into May's hands - giving her the opportunity to look like the Boudicca of the 21st century when she is actually an utterly useless PM.

I wish they'd show some consideration for the 48%

I'm a Remainer - still want to stay in EU - but it's starting to piss me off so there's little chance the leavers who were starting to wobble will want to stay now.

The Daily Mail are relishing it

So you think that we have been well and truly kippered by the EU and should shut up and accept it?

Where do you get that from?

We knew what the process for leaving was likely to be and we chose this path in that knowledge, because we helped to make the rules for leaving. We knew that the treaty and EU law gives the EU a significant advantage in these negotiations, because we helped to write the law.

We are now (rightly, in my view) trying to negotiate more advantageous terms but the EU (again rightly, in my view) is perfectly entitled and reasonable in saying 'actually, no, we prefer the system that benefits us the most.'

We chose this. The continuing suggestion that this situation is somehow being forced upon us is somewhat bewildering. This was our choice, and we should stand by it.

Agree with most of the above. The EU isn't being arsey, they are just incredulous that the message that we cannot 'cherry-pick' the bits of the EU we like is not getting through.

This is the English translation of the Dinner article. Although a lot of the details are now well-known (and ring true) it is worth reading for the German perspective on Brexit.

www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/theresa-may-jean-claude-juncker-and-the-disastrous-brexit-dinner-14998803.html

On the rights of EU citizens, the EU (not unreasonably) wants a reciprocal agreement that all EU migrants in Britain and UK migrants in the EU continue to enjoy the same rights as now. The UK has refused instead wanting to treat them the same as non-EU migrants, despite the fact that they moved on different terms. It is the UK which is being intransigent here.

For those leavers who are complaining about how the EU treated Greece - I presume that you mean that the EU should have given even more money to Greece and not insisted that the greeks collect taxes (see this article on tax evasion uk.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-real-reason-greece-has-a-massive-tax-evasion-problem-2015-2) or raise their retirement rate.

You do realise that we are (or were) the EU don't you? Does that mean that you think more British money should have gone to bail-out Greece?

Ditto for the migrant crisis - should the UK have helped out more, rather than refuse as May did to take any?

It is hypocritical to criticise the EU for not helping enough when we as a country refused to participate in any help.

we might be one of the largest contributors to the EU budget ATM - but that's also because we have one of the largest populations

While this is perfectly true, somehow I doubt the EU will care; a net contribution in excess of £10 billion a year is a lot to lose and it's likely to be the actual money they're worried about, rather than the exact details of how it's come to them

I'm sorry are you saying that people who vote for the fascist candidates don't actually support their fascist policies they just want to leave the EU?

I don't know about what the original poster of this thinks, but I doubt upwards of 1/5 of the French population are fascists. That's an alarming amount of support for fascism.

My guess is most Le Pen voters would not identify as fascists.

The problem with not asking how the Greeks got into debt is that it is part if the jam today/jam tomorrow mentality.

there are two parts to that equation: the greeks borrowing and other lending.

The greeks used to have much higher interest rates than Germany, because of this very issue (excessive borrowing, inflation), and then under the euro the interest rate plummets. it isn't a surprise that such a country will borrow more than it should in these circumstances.

A plan would make a lot of this talk redundant.

That's an alarming amount of support for fascism.

My guess is most Le Pen voters would not identify as fascists.

I'm sure. But that's what they are voting for. And, yes, it's alarming. Many of us have been alarmed for some time.

I doubt upwards of 1/5 of the French population are fascists. That's an alarming amount of support for fascism.

It's beside the point really whether they self identify as fascists or not. Putting a tick beside Le Pen's name is a support of fascism. It's not as though they don't know what she or her party stand for.

It's beside the point really whether they self identify as fascists or not. Putting a tick beside Le Pen's name is a support of fascism. It's not as though they don't know what she or her party stand for.

It begs the question. doesn't it (more or less my point)? Why do so many non-fascists support a fascist?

if you're voting for a facist party you sympathise with fascist politics, therefore you are a fascist whether you've thought it through to its natural conclusion or not. They may not have always been a fan of fascist politics, they may lose faith with fascist politics in the future, but right now if they're voting for Le Pen they're pro-fascist.

this Daily Mash article made me laugh and sums up the issue neatly I feel.

As to the exact reason people are voting for her, well for the usual reason people vote for the far right. She's told them all their woes have been caused by foreigners.

It's terribly unfair that the EU is defending its best interests.

Why can't they pander to extreme factions (à la May and Corbyn) and shoot itself in the foot while doing so - just like the UK.

I am about all the posters saying the EU is unpopular across member states. All the surveys that have been done since the Brexit vote have shown an increase in support for the EU across Europe.

www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/support-for-european-union-has-grown-since-brexit/

www.ft.com/content/9cfdad52-ada7-11e6-9cb3-bb8207902122

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-poll-idUKKCN1002A0

As somebody that grew up "on the continent" (and with citizenship from one EU country...)

I think many British people don't really understand how Brexit is seen by the rest of the EU...

I mean, I personally hope for a good outcome for the UK and the EU. But I just don't think there's a lot of goodwill towards the UK, currently...

From the perspective of the EU Brexit can't be allowed to be good for the UK. Before Theresa May etc honestly accept that (which I fear they can't/won't)? THey won't stop being "arsey". Seeing as the UK has been abit more than that and "started it", from their perspective.

(only personal opinions btw. And I'm sleepy... )

They may not have always been a fan of fascist politics, they may lose faith with fascist politics in the future, but right now if they're voting for Le Pen they're pro-fascist.

Your explanation really lacks nuance. I don't believe 20% of French people are fascists or even think they are voting for a fascist, and that makes them not fascists. you may be right that they are voting for a fascist (I disagree. I don't think she is a fascist, but let's say your are right) my point is they are not voting for her because she is a fascist.

So, then, why are they voting for her?

I've already said

From the perspective of the EU Brexit can't be allowed to be good for the UK.

this is why people may think the EU are being "arsey". they are not negotiating in good faith. There is a distinction of trying to get the best deal for the citizens of the EU (which is what they should be doing. that's what's meant by good faith) and punishing the UK. I think many in Britain feel, for good reason, the EU will go for the latter, even if it makes eu citizens worse off.

I've already said

I know you said, and I explained why I think it isn't a good explanation.

just interesting article thank you!

HOwever I simply have no time or interest whatsoever in their boss at all. I have zero respect for him and the EU in General esp Guy V.

So, I dont care what they think.

Many of us have been alarmed for some time

Yes we have, I am very alarmed that the whole EU project, is pushing the continent towards Fascism. I too agree that people who vote for her will not identify as Fascists but this is the extreme the EU is pushing people too.

Have you ever met a racist who starts sentences with 'I'm not racist but....' or who would bristle with indignation at the very suggestion they're racist? Same with a lot of people who sympathise with fascist politics, they may claim otherwise but if they're whooping for Le Pen how else can they be described?

But then you don't even think Le Pen is a fascist...

Desperate.