'Free birthing' AIBU to think this woman should not be encouraging people to do this

[WilliowGreen]

In this guardian article this woman boasts about her wonderful birth experience by rejecting all care including scans because "it was not empowering".
Before I had my baby (she is 2 weeks old) I would probably have thought her lack of self awareness was funny. Now it quite irrationally fills me with rage.
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/apr/28/experience-i-had-a-free-birth.

I'm only arguing with you, Trifle, because we actually hold the same position here, so I need to explain myself more clearly to myself. I think as far as I can see, it boils down to two things:

Being the decision-making person does not absolve you of moral responsibility to make the right decision. I absolutely do not believe anyone should take the right to decide away from the mother. But being the decision-maker also potentially means being held accountable, if the decision has consequences for other people. If I knew my quality of life had been compromised by my mother's making an irresponsible decision, I would blame her.

The grey area of actual labour does not involve the moment after birth when a baby with a low APGAR score may need urgent attention. Every woman knows that the likely outcome of labour is that there will be another human being with equal rights and that this human being may have different needs, so she has the responsibility (as the decision-maker) to make sure the needs of both can be met.

I think she's not the sort to think much beyond what having a baby means for her. I know that's harsh, but I think it shines out from her words and her various social media ramblings.

But being the decision-maker also potentially means being held accountable, if the decision has consequences for other people.

It depends what you mean by 'held accountable'. If your child blames you, that is their decision. If another person think you acted without due regard to the interests of the child and condemns you for it, that is their decision. Other than that there is no 'accountability'. It sounds really black and white but it really is that simple. A woman has a legal and moral right to make decisions in her own interest first and foremost. If her decisions put her baby at risk, that is between her and her own conscience.

certain things must be required/forbidden.

Nope. I am not required to accept any form of medical attention or treatment.

Read a similar article about the risks of scans and women refusing ultrasounds due to the risks not being known.

Risks of CT / MRI scans after birth if there is anything wrong with your baby are far greater than the risks of ultrasounds when issues could have been picked up.

Thumbwitches - I was living in Oz during this time and I work in health care. I've seen a lot of medicalisation of women's issues and certainly there have been times when I have wondered if pregnancy and birth have been over medicalised. However I was shocked by some of the rhetoric coming from the free-birth advocates - they refer to obstetricians as rapists - which is hugely insulting. They would also do well to remember that pregnancy and childbirth are still in the top 10 causes of death in poorer countries because of a lack of medical care. And I say this as someone who has had two C sections myself. Bonkers.

She's only written that article because luckily things went well for her. If they hadn't and god forbid something had gone wrong then I very much doubt she'd be feeling so smug and be championing 'free birthing'. So basically she is full of shit. She is obviously entitled to her opinion however her opinion is biased because she was fortunate enough that things went okay for her, it's just chance nothing else.

Free birth is NOT the same as home birth.

Safety rates for home birth are actually extremely good. Community midwives are highly trained (and would be the first level of emergency support in a hospital too!). The home birth kits brought/left by the midwives include the first level of care for post-partum haemorrhage.

Pregnancy and childbirth is not necessarily a medical emergency. For a very small percentage it is -- and we are so lucky to live somewhere with a medical system that can deal with it. But it is still important that we should have the right to make our own informed choices. For example, we might decide that the risk of having an induction is actually greater than the risk of expectant management until labour begins naturally. There's not one clear 'right' answer; it's for each woman to decide for themselves. I would like to see an end to language like 'you must' and 'you're not allowed' on labour wards!

Statistically it's dangerous to do a lot of things, including driving a car, but we still have the right to make those decisions for ourselves if we have the mental capacity. Some people might make decisions that you wouldn't make for yourself -- I wouldn't freebirth or refuse scans. But I would absolutely defend any other woman's right to.

I would like to see an end to language like 'you must' and 'you're not allowed' on labour wards

Totally agree with this. Language is so important. I feel entirely at ease with a midwife who says, "Can I examine you now?" I feel incredibly on edge and anxious when a midwife says, "I am going to..." or "I need you to..." That probably sounds precious. I will always do what is right for my baby but there really is no need for HCPs to use imperative or declarative language.

"It depends what you mean by 'held accountable'. "

I meant moral, not legal. I absolutely agree that a woman should not be held legally accountable for decisions taken about pregnancy care: you don't have to think long to see the kind of horrors that would lead to. On that subject, we couldn't agree more.

But I do believe that moral matters. I do believe we are accountable to our children for the kind of life we give them even if the law can't (and shouldn't be able to) touch us.

And when you go into the national press and encourage other women to take up a position that has potentially serious implications not just for the future of the baby but for the emotional wellbeing of the mother, then I think you should be called on it.

Or do we believe in a scenario where the baby dies or is permanently disabled as a result of the mother prioritising her sense of empowerment and this does not affect the mother's future wellbeing?

This woman didn't just make a decision for herself: she is advertising an agenda.

I don't agree with her decision, but I do think she should have the right to make it - it's her body, after all. And I have seen enough stories on here about really terrible care that women have had, both during labour and postnatally, to understand why she wouldn't want to put herself through it.

I do think that all that nonsense about respecting your body's ability to birth naturally etc displays a great deal of ignorance about the number of women and babies who die birthing "naturally" all over the world. But her call.

But I do agree very much that there is a danger in letting words like "allowing" and "forbidding" slip into the discourse.

I think that refusing medical intervention is a valid choice, and one I believe every individual should be able to make. As long as the risks are clearly explained, I'd fight for every womans choice to make the decision about what happens

You don't have to fight though do you? She does have the right to make that choice and nobody is suggesting that she shouldn't. But we are also entitled to say that choice was irresponsible and put her child at risk.

I think most people would have the sense to realise that if they wanted an unmedicalised birth then taking up the scans to make sure that there were no complications which could put the child at risk.

I do feel sorry for kids whose parents put their hippy dippy bullshit ahead of their welfare even when it's clearly not in the poor child's interest. One of the school mother's at DS's school is always sharing those 'crunchy momma's use coconut oil for everything' memes and banging on about how she won't use modern medicine to treat her kids with it and doesn't need to because coconut oil is so miraculous. Her poor little toddler is covered in excema and psoriasis and has terrible cradle cap. I just want to scream at her to give the poor little fucker some steroids.

Yes people have the right to refuse treatment for themselves and their children. But the rest of us also have the right to judge them if that means their children are being exposed to serious risk or major discomfort as a result.

Put it another way. She looked at the stats which told her that it was less likely there would be problems. Every time me and my children go out in a car the stats tell me that we will probably have a safe journey without incident. But that doesn't mean I just let them sit on the back seat with no belts or safety seats because as a responsible parent I make sure they are protected should the worst happen despite the stats telling me we're not likely to be in a crash. Given that birth complications are way more common than car crashes I really can't understand why some people would celebrate this whilst at the same time thinking taking lesser risks like not bothering with car seats ore safety belts are unacceptable.

Cory:

But nearly everyone who publishes opinion pieces about birth is advertising an agenda. Everyone who reads it is entitled to agree or disagree. I think she has been thoroughly 'called on it' as it were! I am glad we live in a place where people can publish their drivel and be damned

Are birth complications way more common than car crashes?

That surprises me.

Hospital and medical professionals not impressed by woman giving birth.
"It's happened before" said a spokesperson.
Guardian comment

What a load of self indulgent first world privileged shite.

There are many women all over the world who have to 'freebirth' because they don't get the luxury of being able to reject the care that we are lucky enough to receive. I wonder how fucking 'empowered' they feel when they suffer horrific birth injuries, or their baby dies, or they die.

Twat.

Death also happens all the time, but most medical professionals manage not to be shitty and dismissive about it (not all).

Why the huge rush to demean what is a huge life event. Childbirth is not just a means to an end or an everyday event FFS.

Utter. Arrant. Narcissistic. Twaddle.

Both DD2 and I would have died if not for modern obstetrics.

Only selfish twats gamble with their baby's life to make them feel empowered.

Childbirth is not just a means to an end or an everyday event FFS.

Er, yeah, it is. Both.

People don't have the right to decline medical care for their children. The courts see cases about it all the time. Yeah, you can choose not to vaccinate your child but you can't refuse cancer treatment, or force a hospital to keep them on life support, or many other medical procedures.

Again, I think on balance the UK has it right. The women and babies maimed and/or dead from catastrophically stupid choices like this are small in number compared to the number that would be hurt by more restrictive laws and policies. But people are being rather UK-centric in thinking that restrictions on birth choices are unenforceable. Many countries have them.

Agree free birth and home birth are very different. As an unintended consequence of this article,some Mothers who are perfectly reasonably planning a home birth, will no doubt be put under pressure to deliver in Hospital.

The silly lady didnt exactly have a wild birth. A midwife checked her and she presumably lives within spitting distance of a large hospital. I'm guessing the Royal Free.

I too am glad that we have free speech, Trifle. At the same time, I don't think that publishing your drivel in a large national newspaper is some kind of human right; common sense seems to suggest that this must be a "right" that is withheld from most of the population.

As a newspaper reader, I'd go as far as to say that I would prefer if the content I was paying for was provided by thoughtful and well informed professionals: for drivel we have the internet

What a massive bell end.

I've had two of the least complicated births known to man. Could have happily had them in a fairy circle at Stonehenge and not died. But who's to know that this would be the case. Not me that's for sure.

I had two babies in a midwife led unit. In and out in a few hours. Didn't see a doctor at any point. One midwife supporting. No pressure to be medicalised. No forced positions. She just blended into the background and left me to it. i felt 100% confident that I could have birthed hanging off the light fittings and they wouldn't have given a shit. But they were there if anything went wrong and I think that's important.

And what about my comments about death Bill?

Do you go up to someone grieving and say oh don't think about it, it happens every day after all