To not understand all of this Corbyn hate

[clevername]

Disclaimer – I consider myself to be an intelligent and thoughtful person but also very uninformed and ignorant of political (and other) current affairs. Largely through my own choosing – I have virtually no faith in politicians and politics at all. I realised a very long time ago that the whole thing was an elaborate farce. I’ve always spoilt my ballot until Nick Clegg won me over and then proved, unequivocally, that I was right to not trust them. I vowed never to vote again but I’m feeling stirred to this time around and have therefore been looking into it more and trying to sift through the inevitable bullshit…

So – what is so bad about Corbyn? From what I understand (do remember my disclaimer and how uninformed I am!), the main people in the Labour party hate him because he is ‘unelectable’. So they’ve wanted him out for a long time but he has refused to go, on account of the fact he has been democratically chosen by the party members to be the leader. This annoys and frustrates them and they therefore blame him for creating an enormous and damaging rift in the party. But, surely, the fact that he has been elected as leader is testament to his popularity with Labour voters? And isn’t it a good thing that he stands his ground? Especially against the kind of people who would rather have someone like Ed Milliband (or his ilk – I don’t know any ‘current’ names) as party leader? Doesn’t it show that he is principled and ‘different’ from the political norm? Isn’t this something that we need?

And what does it matter if the Labour party are in shambles (a common reason I hear for not wanting to vote for them this time)? Surely that’s because of all of the ‘unelectable’ stuff above. But if he were to be elected, I’m guessing those problems would evaporate. Because he would have been elected. And anyway, aren’t political parties often shambolic? Wasn’t May’s drastic cabinet overhaul and sackings at the beginning of her reign (not to mention the Boris/Gove thing in the leadership contest) a clear sign of an ununited, shambolic party?

I realise Corbyn isn’t to everyone’s tastes politically but if you’re left leaning and want to try and get rid of the Tories, surely he’s not such a bad bet?

I’m sorry if this is making me come across as stupid but I genuinely want to know why some people (especially those who would normally consider themselves left-wing or Labour voters) dislike him so much.

drystonewalls57 - Jeremy Corbyn categorically did not support the Anglo-Irish agreement. It is a matter of public record. He voted against it and spoke out against it in parliament.

Corbyn was in favour of a united Ireland and supported the Anglo-Irish agreement

He'd got a funny way of showing it then: quote from Hansard Nov 85:

"Mr. Corbyn Does the hon. Gentleman accept that some of us oppose the agreement for reasons other than those that he has given? We believe that the agreement strengthens rather than weakens the border between the six and the 26 counties, and those of us who wish to see a United Ireland oppose the agreement for that reason."

hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1985/nov/27/anglo-irish-agreement#S6CV0087P0_19851127_HOC_294

Drystone, I agree Corbyn has insisted on dialogue and I agree he opposes violence from all sources. But for many people, supporting an organisation that uses violence within a democracy is a red line.

Here is the text of the editorial medium.com/@JRogan3000/labour-entryism-and-northern-ireland-8d9f7c738a09 (scroll down for the clipping)

While the department is spending significant funds in creating 500 more free schools, even in areas with no shortage of places, existing schools struggle to live within their budgets and carry out routine maintenanceMichael Gove introduced free schools under the Coalition government, but May has continued to support them. She has even extended the level of support, as the Spring Budget promised to build 140 more. This despite a damning report which showed millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money had been spent on brand new free schools that were ultimately left empty. Absolutely shameful

Totally agree, Drystone.

People in despair at JC's leadership are not usually supporters of the tories - the tories are delighted about it! The fact that this government is so vile and awful and likely to be replaced by an even more vile and awful one makes the lack of proper opposition even worse.

These threads keep bringing this argument up "JC cannot be that bad a leader because the tories are awful". It is a complete non-sequitur.

I haven't read all of the replies to your post but sorry, you do come across as very politically naive and a bit ignorant.

Corbyn is unelectable and his party know that. Yes, he was voted in by Labour Party members but that membership only costs a nominal amount and many conservative voters and UKIP etc were joining the Labour Party just to vote for him knowing that he was unelectable.

So far 12 of his MPs have said they will not stand for re-election because they cannot support a party led by him. He lost half of his shadow cabinet and then had to rebuild it using MPs that would support him, not the best MPs Labour has to offer. His shadow cabinet includes the mutually loathsome Diane Abbot.

Recently Corbyn went on Andrew Marr and said that he wants to scrap Trident and MI5. Think about that when the West are facing threats from Russia, North Korea and ISIS. The country needs a leader who can make decisions and considered the security of the UK paramount.

Corbyn is also a Eurosceptic. He voted to leave the European Community in the referendum in the 70s. I would be willing to bet that he also voted leave in the most recent referendum (although this will never be proven). This goes against his party's line. He did nothing to campaign for remain and this angered a lot of Labour MPs.

Finally re your point about May's Cabinet. It is almost expected that a new PM will appoint a new Cabinet. May would want to be surrounded by, what she considers, her best and most loyal MPs. It is not an indication of a shambolic party.

People in despair at JC's leadership are not usually supporters of the tories - the tories are delighted about it!

Yes, and a couple of posters who support the Conservative party have posted on the thread saying this.

You can't blame the PLP trying to save their seats by distancing themselves from Corbyn - with the best will in the world, the polls aren't close, JC is presiding over a bloodbath for labour, off an already low base from 2015 he is predicted to drop a lot more. Labour has been destroyed in Scotland.

It's desperately sad that people on DLA or claiming it for their children and being careers are not going to get a labour govt. Hopefully this election will show you that you've got to back your local shiny faced mealy mouthed moderate Blairite type. What we need to do is look strong and stable, rebuild the consensus whilst raising taxes and funding services and people - not scaring all the wealth creators.

Carers, not careers...I won't vote labour, I've said many times. First time ever. I didn't vote in the last local elections as couldn't bring myself to vote labour or for another party. I've always voted labour since 1997 for everything.

I'm in scotland though. I'd vote lib dem in England.

With a membership of half a million, the Labour Party is the largest political party in Europe and increased its membership massively since Corbyn's leadership campaign. Sadly, there are people in the PLP who do not support Corbyn but as a true socialist he is what many in the party have been waiting for, fordecades for. It is important that the Tories are booted out. Austerity has not worked; the Government has paid out more to enforce this than they have gained and at what cost to vulnerable people in our society? People need to think long and hard about the lies that have been told by the Tories and look carefully at their policies which will continue to impact severely not just on the disadvantaged n our society, but on ordinary working people.

It is important that the Tories are booted out. Austerity has not worked; the Government has paid out more to enforce this than they have gained and at what cost to vulnerable people in our society? People need to think long and hard about the lies that have been told by the Tories and look carefully at their policies which will continue to impact severely not just on the disadvantaged n our society, but on ordinary working people.

Well said. Absolutely.

Can I point out how the democratic system works in this country. People vote for the party they want. How many new members are in the labour party has no consequence whatsoever. During the time of this fantastic increase in membership, the labour party have pretty much lost every single council election, they lost one in Middlesbrough the other week. MIDDLESBOROUGH. We understand about Tory cuts, I work within the local authority for goodness sake. This is why we are so furious with him. I don't think for one second he cares about the disabled and the poor, he cares about his ideology, that's a different thing.

And I can usually spell middlesbrough

Drystone - again, people in despair at JC's leadership want the current government out. The tories cheered him at PMQs yesterday.

I don't understand who you are trying to convince - tory supporters are not going to be attracted to a JC-lef party and Remainers are unimpressed with the leadership on Brexit. The labour vote in the Richmond bye-election was as I remember lower than the number of local party members.

I don't think for one second he cares about the disabled and the poor, he cares about his ideology, that's a different thing.

Our (socialist) ideology is that we will work to eliminate injustices done to the poor and disabled. It is embedded.

Conservative ideology hopes that as the rich get richer enough resources will trickle down to the poor and disabled. They don't seem to get there.

PMQs

PMQs have never solved anything. They are a carnival sideshow.

Of course they haven't. I wasn't talking about them solving anything! But you can see the mood of the different parliamentary parties, just because they are a show.

Everyone who is saying that Corbyn is unelectable, what about this man? I'll vote for Corbyn because he actually stands for something. He's not like the conservatives who just want to destroy the country and line their own pockets!

Clement Atlee had a track record of actual achievement in the War Time coalition.

Clement Atlee had a track record of actual achievement in the War Time coalition.

^ this.

Incomparable analogy.

Atlee also has a reputation of managing his Cabinet well.

I think there is a gap between the two section of our society right. If the under 40 are thinking of voting Labour and the above 40 aren't, it can go on to show some really interesting points. I hope someone comes and discusses them.
I think this at least makes it a lazy argument to say Tories and UKIP joined Labour to keep Corbyn in.
And I also think people really really need to stop bleating about the shiny-ness of Blair because his very name is damaging Labour's prospects in the under 40s.

And here is, I think, a great article on the Neoliberal quandary:

Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems - George Monbiot

Everyone who is saying that Corbyn is unelectable, what about this man?

Again (for the last time) - I think Corbyn is unelectable but will be voting Labour nonetheless (unless something dramatic happens on Brexit). People vote for the party they want to win, not the party they think will win (that is what placing bets is for). I want to see and end to this government but don't think Corbyn can deliver it. If I wanted to tories to win, I would be pleased at what JC is doing.

And at the comparison between Attlee and Corbyn!

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/clement-attlee-detested-faddish-radicalism-you-couldn-t-say-jeremy-corbyn-his-heir - by Attlee's biographer.

I hadn't realised that Corbyn fans were invoking Clement Atlee.

They have some front!

Atlee was a total pragmatist - he did not have respect for intellectual socialists like JC! JC is a textbook protest socialist, not a doer.