To think it's wrong that Dance and Drama students get so much help with degree costs?

[Serin]

When everyone else has to pay £9000 a year and then living costs.
If the government has money to fund some courses why not use it to fund nursing students?
www.gov.uk/dance-drama-awards

Do we have a chronic shortage of actors?

I think we don't have a shortage of actors in this country. Lots of them seem to be constantly out of work....

It sounds like you want a race to the bottom, OP. If nurses aren't given bursaries then let's take away funding from these other students and then everyone can be miserable together.

my hard earned taxes

Your hard earned taxes are going to pay a huge army fighting in many foreign countries who would rather they would stay at home and keeping banks afloat because it would be dreadful if a banker ever had to suffer the consequences of their actions, but yeah, let's race to the bottom and make sure everyone has a rubbish life.

What???? I did a BA and am on an MA for an English related course and have had 0 bursaries, grants etc ... I have over £50k of debt and know loads of drama students

And my best friend is in nursing and is genuinely struggling! She wants to care for our elderly !! Wtf

It's a frivolous degree. Waste of money.

You shouldn't be sacrificing your childhood for ballet or whatever.. such kids are often pushed by their parents.

Children often end up doing what their parents pushed them to and approved of until they are strong enough to make up their own mind.

Bright kids who get into medicine for example had to sacrifice a lot too.

So i agree with you op.

With art, you either are talented or not. Schooling in it is pointless.

With art, you either are talented or not. Schooling in it is pointless. My God, what a preposterous thing to say; do you have any idea how many hours of work it takes to become a great dancer or musician?

I really don't think that over funding the arts is a huge problem in this government. Also I have noticed that all the recent cuts in arts funding have not led to a huge improvement in the NHS.

It is interesting that countries with good funding for the arts (such as Scandinavian countries and Germany) also have good funding for health and social care. Guess who wants to completely eradicate the National Endowment for the Arts? Yes you guessed it, that champion of healthcare Donald Trump.

If you want to complain about arts funding look at the huge fucking subsidy the royal opera house has had over the years from the arts council.

Oh don't worry OP, I daresay that such schemes will go the same way as arts GCSE courses in schools soon enough.

Maybe what you should be asking is what the effect of tuition fees is in general.

We're not short of English literature graduates, either - what a frivolous degree.

I do think that there are possibly too many dance and drama courses now, producing thousands of graduates every year many of whom will struggle to find work.

However, for most of these students it is a passion, not a frivolous whim. I am thinking of dance students as I've worked in that industry, I don't know so much about drama students. You don't get many students 17+ who are doing it because of a pushy mum, for the majority they are seriously passionate about it.

I am in touch with hundreds of dance graduates, the majority do freelance project based work, mixed with teaching, lots expand to things like yoga/pilates teaching. A few leave the arts completely but actually not that many. Very few are likely to ever pay back their student loans, they make a pittance but continue on because it is their passion and money is genuinely not that important to them (I am referring to students who did a dance degree, which assuredly exists).

With art, you either are talented or not. Schooling in it is pointless

Sorry, but for dance and music at least this isnt true.

Oxbridge most certainly do not charge more than the standard tuition fee. Additionally, although I don't know about Oxford, Cambridge have a reasonably generous bursary (funded by the university) for students from lower-income families top help pay living costs.
www.cambridgestudents.cam.ac.uk/cambridgebursary

YANBU but then I am not remotely artistic and can't see the point of it the majority of the time

I think CarylChurchill said is spot on. (Like the name, btw)!
We need to fund all education fairly, we need diversity, particularly in the arts. Artists often easily accessible philosophers, they can comment on society; target and criticise governments. Churchill's use of Brecht being a good example. Edward Bond, Ken Kesey. Actors choosing to support certain writers can do the same. Lindsey Kemp as a dancer, too.
As an aside, I have three children at university, the one doing science gets the same bursary as the two doing Literature.

I know a bunch of maths PhDs who are just doing what interests them. No useful application at all, and some won't complete, but fully funded. Is that any different?

I thought DaDa's were more for post 16 education (especially dance - where you do need to train a lot of hours early doors).

Most degrees (including those at Drama schools, as well as theatre related course at universities) are under the same loan system as everyone else. Some Drama schools have stayed outside this system - and you have to pay for those upfront.

If you want to increase the numbers of allied health degree funding then lobby for the reintroduction of NHS bursaries - the number of applications - esp from mature students had crashed this year after scrapping bursaries & introducing loans.

My middle son wants to go to drama school. He's had big parts in west end shows so I guess he has the talent. And he's certainly realistic about his chances. He won't qualify for a meaningful DaDa but we have no spare cash to give him so he'll have to fund himself. Same as if he does any other degree or course.

He's certainly not pushed by me. He wants to go to drama school, not university - where the odds of getting in are around 2000 odd to 15 or something daft. How could I push him into that? Certainly not going to stop him though. His second choice career is currently SaLT or teaching - actor training of any sort would be marvellous for those and (along with most vocational degrees) is something better done when a bit older and with a little bit more life experience imo.

My youngest wants to do history. Is that allowed or too frivolous? (Rolls eyes).

Yes, the thread title is inaccurate. DaDAs are essentially a sixth form award (though eligibility continues into early 20s) for level 5 or 6 diplomas.

Are there any other sixth-form subjects which are only taught in a small number of establishments?

I agree OP, far better uses for the money.

Most children I know who do dance do it as their parents made them. Only one likes it and it still wouldn't be a career choice for her.

Only courses that there is a shortage of employees in should get bursaries. The rest should be student loans that have enforced payback. Far too many take the loan with absolutely no intention of paying it back wasting time, money and places.

Would it be legal/enforceable to do that?

Genuine question, as I thought that under 18s cannot have debt enforced against them.

(It's been pointed out a few times on the thread that these are sixth form awards, not degree bursaries, taught only in a small number of schools. It's like the remnant of the Assisted Place scheme, only available for subjects which are not routinely provided)

I don't think any of you have any idea how tough the acting/dance works is if you think kids are pushed into it. Do you really think you could push a child to perform in front of thousands (having had rounds of auditions to get into that position). Of course you can't.

And with entry into top drama/dance schools being hugely competitive (far more competitive than medicine) you don't end up there courtesy of a pushy parent.

I would have thought parents pushing children into 'sensible' career choices was more likely.

They're given to a tiny number of students. A select few institutions qualify and not all students on these selective courses will qualify.

I know plenty of professional people who were pushed into that by parents.

Can we define what a useful degree is, please? Nursing, sure - but I suppose all the nurses who work privately should have to pay their loans back too?

Devilish you're exactly right about being pushed into sensible subjects. I also had lots of friends at school pushed into professional routes like teaching when they had originally wanted to learn a trade.

Exactly basket. I have made sure my son a) knows the realities (he does a lot more than me - has been on touring shows and is still in touch with lots of people from that time and sees how much they do/don't work and knows how hugely talented they are ) b) knows it's never too late to retrain and that for some degrees you can get second sets of loans and c) knows that access courses are a good way to access new opportunities if you change your mind later on.

The rest is up to him. Not my life to live.

OP What is this "playing field should be the same whatever degree/course a student is studying" you speak of? That hasn't existed in well over 20 years! I was offered a place to study drama when I was 18 following auditions at all manner of universities and drama colleges, most of which I had to pay for. However, that year, my county scrapped any funding for drama students. My parents couldn't afford the tuition fees so I couldn't go (they could only have paid about half my accommodation and the rest I would have had to earn via a part-time job). However, a friend of mine did get a grant to study golf course management.