To strongly disapprove of people who have affairs?

[ncrant]

NC for this.

Really, AIBU? Is this more acceptable/expected now?

I have several friends who are having/had affairs with married people. They tell me their trouble. They're good people, but I can't be sympathetic, and mostly I don't know what to say. Inside, I am thinking (angrily) - just DON'T do this, it is wrong. Married people aren't available, full stop. If someones still in a relationship, just leave well alone. I recognise that life is very very complicated (and both parties are responsible), but I can't feel any less black and white about this.

So just interested in views. AIBU to completely judge? Should I try and understand more?

Daisybutton, I certainly wouldn't say it makes you scum. I think that's horribly harsh and most of the posters wouldn't use that word, but do you really think an affair is okay morally?

On the plus side of an affair, presumably you get some of the intimacy/enjoyment that you may feel you're missing out on.

On the negative side, you are likely to deeply hurt someone who loves you and trusts you.
And if you have children, they may have to go through the breakup of their family with all the hurt that entails, and they may possibly end up resenting you for it later.

Is the pleasure of the first really worth the risk of the second?

I'm not trying to be goady, but the cost of an affair is that other people get hurt. I genuinely struggle to understand how someone can justify it.

Are you as understanding as if it was your husband that said he was cheating, he's not scum, he was unhappy and just fell in love? Probably not.

If I found out my son was cheating I would judge them. Of course I would. I wouldn't cut them out of my life but I would feel disappointment and upset that my child didn't have the decency to break up a relationship before taking up a new one.

Surely if you need to know the reason a person is having an affair then you are judging, just a little bit? Otherwise you'd be happy to accept what they're doing with no question?

And yes, I do think that "emotional abuse, violence, male chauvinism, theft, murder, secret debts, addictions" are potentially worse than an affair, however if my husband were to have an affair I'd be devastated. My POV is that it's less about how the cheating person feels than how the cheated on spouse feels.

I have the ability to decide whether there are extenuating circumstances, I've read enough of the Relationships board to know that it tends to be 'unhappiness' on the part of the cheating spouse. I get that there are two sides to every story but how often is anyone 100% honest, and how often do you get that from all parties concerned?

I was the victim of an affair. My husband had an affair with someone else. We tried again for a few months but the trust was gone. It has destroyed me completely

But that is you. Not all couples are the same. I know of couples where they have moved on, where one partner says it wouldn't be a big deal if it was just a bit of sex, and other couples (close relatives in fact) where the affair was an open secret and tolerated or even condoned.

I honestly don't understand people saying they were 'destroyed' by an affair. It's painful yes, the hurt must be terrible, but 'destroyed' by someone sleeping with someone else? No. How can you allow another person's behaviour to destroy you? Genuine question.

Well I think for most of us our marriage partly defines our feelings of safety and security when you find you judged that badly your whole world can feel like it's foundations are unstable that would feel extremely destructive to your confidence and sense of self.

PollyPerky - I think it’s hugely variable.

My DP had an affair. It hurt a lot. The break up messed up my life hugely, but I think that would have been the case without the affair, because our lives were really entwined. I certainly didn’t come out of it with warm and fuzzy feelings for all involved, but it didn’t destroy me or kill my ability to trust or love. No more than any break up.

A relationship ended. That’s all. Having said that, if you’d asked me six months in how I felt about the subject, I’d not have been nearly so calm and probably would have wanted to hurl a load of abuse around the room. I suspect, however, that most people who have got over their break up, and moved on, don’t post so much on forums like MN because, well, it’s not this all-consuming thing any more. Most people who post are still in the ‘this is awful and hurts’ stage. And, of course, it really varies how long it takes to get out of that stage and I guess some folk never do.

PollyPerky
How can you allow another person's behaviour to destroy you? Genuine question.

Because we are all affected by other people's behaviour, even if we don't want to be.

When it's the people we trust most that betray that trust, it can be damaging in a way that is really hard to come back from.

Once you know just how badly someone you trust can hurt you, it's incredibly hard to let your guard down enough to love that deeply again.

Maybe some people find it easier than others to move on, but that doesn't make it okay.

Having an affair is not the only way someone can break your trust and make it hard to love again, though.

My XH was faithful - but that was about the only thing he did right. I'm still dealing with the emotional aftermath of his dreadfulness.

Towards the end of our marriage I found myself wishing he would go off and shag someone else, so that I had a solid reason to kick him out (he refused to leave, or to let me leave).

However, if you believe everything you read on this board, infidelity is the sin that trumps all sins, and must never be forgiven.

I don't feel that way. All break ups hurt, and surely, if your husband or partner just decided to up sticks with no-one to go to, they just didn't want to be with you any more, that would hurt every bit as much?

Mind you, I'm writing this from the perspective of someone who trusts no-one 100%, so I wouldn't have that broken trust thing to deal with, I guess.

Judging is an enivitable part of people doing something they shouldn't. Like speeding or taking kids out of school for term time holidays. Some people are just twats and some will have legitimate reasons.

I agreed with the poster at the beginning who couldn't get past the single people who have affairs with married partners. The married party at least knows what they stand to lose whilst the single person can move on risk free or ends up with " the prize".

I have a mostly lovely friend who is involved with a married man and I don't judge her because I already know she is a bit selfish and thinks the world revolves around her. She has other qualities that make her a nice person but I know she doesn't give the wife a second thought.

I wouldn't cut my children out of my life if they murdered someone so definitely wouldn't if they had an affair. I'm not sure what would make me cut my children out of my life, I'm not saying I wouldn't be upset with them, angry with them, disappointed with them but cut them out of my life? No, never.

I'm sure someone will come up with something that might make me think again but I don't know what.

^ OvariesForgotHerPassword Tue 25-Apr-17 20:18:28

If a friend told me they were cheating or that they were the OW/OM, I'd tell them what a cunt they're being. I wouldn't break off the friendship but I'd think less of them and wouldn't hesitate to call them out on it.^

...are you my ex-best friend by any chance?!
Despite knowing about, witnessing and being subjected herself to my EXH emotional abuse over the years, and also knowing about the financial abuse as well, she still managed to hoik up her judgy pants when I told her I was leaving him. Yes, I left him for someone else. No, I didn't have any physical contact with him beforehand. TBH I saw a way out and I took it. It was the first opportunity I'd had to get out in 10 years. Anyone, including her, who wished to judge me on that can fuck off. They can try being married to him for a miserable decade and then give me their opinions. You might find with that opinion that they'd break the friendship off for you!

I think that's very true what Haliez and Mumsbod said.

I was hurt very badly, twice, in my late teens and early 20s - not through infidelity - and it took me a good few years to get over it. The person(s) left me when our future was all mapped out. I got over it and I suppose having had that experience at a young age it toughened me up. At the time, I thought nothing could be as bad ever again. I suppose because I know now that life goes on, I try to believe that our self worth should not be directly linked to one person, or our relationship with someone, because there are no guarantees.

She wasn't a friend then, was she flipflop?

Like I said earlier, those that have not had experience of abusive relationships, unless you've been there yourself, you cannot judge just how hard it is to "just leave".

I certainly think there are worse things people can do than have an affair.

I know I would be hurt if it happened to me. I know I don't think I could ever do it.

But I get that there are factors that make an affair a distinct possibility for many.

The whole "life isn't black and white" argument is an interesting one. In my own experience, I've found that a generally "good" person (not abusive, non addicted, average everyday person,) tend to be forgiven for any affairs.

My dad cheated on my mother. My uncle cheated on my aunt.

My dad was an alcoholic. My uncle is not and never has been.

My dad cheated with a woman he met at a bar. My uncle cheated with his neighbour.

People forgave my uncle. Because "at least he knew her."

And to be honest, I never got that argument.

When you judge someone for having an affair, what is it you're judging them for? Are you judging them because they are hurting a decent person? Because they're betraying someone who would do anything for them? Who loves them more than anything? Even though chances are you don't know the betrayed person either? It's very easy to do from the sidelines, this judging thing, when you are in possession of only some of the facts, the ones which make one person look like the devil and the other like a saint.

My marriage ended after I had an affair. I was married to a man who on the surface was lovely albeit a bit antisocial. He treated me well, bought me everything I could ever want. His manipulation was subtle.

he believed that I would leave him one day, so he went to every length to ensure I didn't. When I had children I gave up work by mutual agreement, but he made it increasingly difficult for me to go back to work when the DC started school. I became involved in voluntary activities with school and he got involved as well so that I never went anywhere on my own unless he was at home to babysit.

He believed he had a right to anything I was doing so he installed all my social media accounts on his devices as well so he could follow whatever I was posting there and could read any messages etc. He put a keylogger on the computer so he knew everything I was doing on it. He tracked my phone when I went out and would accuse me of lying if I couldn't tell him the name of the place I had been.

He disabled the controls to the heating so that I couldn't have it on while he was at work. Used to threaten to kill or hurt my animals. He was never violent, hardly even raised his voice in fact, he was far more frightening than that.

He told me no-one else would ever want me but that was ok because he loved me. He refused to come anywhere near me when I was on my period because he felt it was unfair to hug me if it meant he wouldn't be getting sex. He insisted we should move for his job so we moved 200 miles away from any support network, I had no friends, no family, but he kept going out with his friends but giving me a hard time if I left the house.

I found out about his stalking my social media so I changed all my passwords and blocked him. He swore it was just insecurity. but it was then that I started talking to someone online. I honestly didn't see it coming. I had no idea that anyone would want anything from me, until the bloke told me he had feelings for me, and by then I had developed feelings for him. I should have walked away then, kept telling myself that I needed to, but didn't. Because for once in my life I felt as if someone actually cared about me for me.

We met up once and once only, and we slept together. And when I came home I knew that I couldn't go on like this any more. I had known for years that my marriage was in trouble, but had never thought I could leave or be able to be on my own. But this time I knew, and the worst of it was that having slept with someone else I couldn't go near my h again. So we split up, and he divorced me on the grounds of adultery. I saw the OM once more after that and then it ended. It was never going to be anyway.

But in the eyes of everyone I am apparently scum. It doesn't matter what happened before I had the affair, the affair removes any previous wrongdoing, cancels it all out, gone. To the world at large my ex is a victim of a lying cheating bitch who just went out for a cheap shag. That's the MN ideal anyway.

I absolutely own what I did. It's the most regrettable thing I have ever done and I absolutely would never do it again. It doesn't really matter how much people hate me or think I am the scum of the earth, I hate myself enough for what I did, and I know that one day my children will find out as my ex has promised to sit them all down on their eighteenth birthdays and tell them the truth about me. It's no more than I deserve.

Except I just want to say one thing about this idea that people should leave a relationship first. Society is not supportive of people who leave relationships because they're unhappy. It's only recently that emotional abuse is starting to be recognised, and when I talked about what went on in my marriage prior to my affair the response was "but he doesn't hit you." go and read the relationships boards and look at the numbers of posts from people whose partners have told them they no longer love them. Those partners are still branded all sorts, cowards, bastards, scum for not wanting to resolve their marriage issues, nobody turns round and says "if he's really unhappy then he has a right to leave." I had family who told me that the only reasons to leave a marriage were physical violence or an affair, so given I had had an affair he had every reason to leave me.

There are many fundamentals when it comes to infidelity. Having an affair is absolutely not the way to leave a marriage, and I would say that to anyone I knew to be having an affair. Also, it takes a certain kind of person to expect friends to lie and cover for them so they can spend time with OM/OW. I never confided in anyone. Never expected anyone to cover for me, and never told anyone about the OM. Some friends knew about my marriage though but only on a superficial level.

In an ideal world people would have the courage to leave unhappy marriages. But it's really not that simple when you have young children and nowhere to go, no income or means of earning because you are main carer to the children.

I am absolutely sure that there are people who sleep around because they can. Because sex with one person isn't enough for them. Once I slept with someone else I actually couldn't go back to sleeping with my husband and never did so again. And for what it's worth, sex with the OM was a bit shit anyway. but it wasn't the sex that I wanted, I just realised that I was actually a human being. Once OM left the scene I could have gone back to my ex, he wanted me back. But I was free by then. I could walk away and rebuild my life.

Life just isn't as simple as we would like to believe. We should all grow up with a sense of moral right and wrong, and we should all aspire to stick to that. But sometimes things don't turn out how we plan, and when we take the wrong path or make stupid choices, there has to be a way back, or life surely isn't really worth living is it? One mistake and you're out? Nobody's perfect.

honestly don't understand people saying they were 'destroyed' by an affair. It's painful yes, the hurt must be terrible, but 'destroyed' by someone sleeping with someone else? No. How can you allow another person's behaviour to destroy you? Genuine question

Because you question everything....the holidays, family days out, parent's evenings, the nights out he had with mates, the time he went overnight on business....because it is a fundamental of who you are and it is suddenly and violently removed....because the behaviour can be appalling, sexual health risks, in my case him not bothering with a condom the week he left resulting in pregnancy, the lying, the rewriting of history, the withdrawal of money from joint bank accounts, the refusal,to,discuss anything, the moving in with girlfriend immediately and telling the children to lie to you about it, the calling you names, accusing you of things htat simply never happened, having another woman tell your children she's their mother now, the lying to the courts, the lying to social services to try and get your children removed from your care, the taking holiday after holiday whilst your home is repossessed from under you, the refusal to return your children to you, the refusal to pay maintenance....

Sleeping with someone else is only the start for some. Some of us have been to hell and back and yet according to most,the fact my ex was unhappy with our marriage makes it all ok

The only people I would judge for having an affair would be myself and my husband after that it's none of my business and can't see why I would set myself up as a judge in something that has nothing to do with me or where I do not understand the reasons why.

Gut I completely understand and agree with everything you've said. That feeling of realising you are actually a human being that another human can care for. That was the turning point for me too. I just wanted to feel free again.

But that is you. Not all couples are the same. I know of couples where they have moved on, where one partner says it wouldn't be a big deal if it was just a bit of sex, and other couples (close relatives in fact) where the affair was an open secret and tolerated or even condoned.I honestly don't understand people saying they were 'destroyed' by an affair. It's painful yes, the hurt must be terrible, but 'destroyed' by someone sleeping with someone else? No. How can you allow another person's behaviour to destroy you? Genuine question

You can't belittle someone's feelings with sweeping statements, and then pretend to be interested by using the term ''genuine question'' at the end. It is all a bit passive aggressive

Condoning and tolerating affairs is a complete joke and those people should not have got married in the first place, as they don't take their vows seriously - what a jokeshop attitude to have

Totally agree OP. I did it myself once, unknowingly when the man swore he was unattached. It transpired he had a wife and seven children back in Ireland. I dumped him immediately but it didn't stop me feeling disgusted and ashamed.

according to most,the fact my ex was unhappy with our marriage makes it all ok

It doesn't make it ok, only OK for those who do not take marriage vows seriously, and therefore should not be married

needsahalo I'm really sorry you went through all that, but surely your ex-husband's behaviour goes way beyond 'having an affair'?

I mean, he really took bad behaviour to the extreme, didn't he?

n an ideal world people would have the courage to leave unhappy marriages. But it's really not that simple when you have young children and nowhere to go, no income or means of earning because you are main carer to the children

I am sorry for what happen d to you and don't want to come across as a heartlesss bitch but I just wanted to pick up on the nowhere to go issue. It was no different for me as the SAHM. Sure, I got benefits when he walked but they didn't touch the sides of the mortgage. I lost my home, gave birth, re-trained and went back to full time work all in a short period of time.

What you seem to be suggesting is you didn't want to be 'single mum on benefits' so rather than leaving, you waited for someone else to take care of you and/or had an affair to force the issue. You say society isn't supportive of people who leave unhappy relationships but it is even less supportive of single mums and some of us have had to suck that up through no fault of our own. And I am not quite sure how more supportive society is of people who have affairs...indeed, those who have the courage to walk away get a round of applause from me but obviously my experiences rather cloud that issue.

As I said, you clearly have had a terrible time. I am just not sure how an affair can help that.

I love the idea that I'm being sanctimonious for asking for different perspectives on my own knee-jerk reaction. I guess unless you're lucky enough to be born with the ability to know all nuances of a situation, then it's pointless trying to understand more or to change your mind.

In response to the question about my own life experience - early 40s, seen all sides of messy affairs including fallout in my own immediate family (hence the judginess). But generally I really appreciate everyone who's taken the time to post - as I said before, I wanted views, and they have been very helpful in pointing out lots of reasons why I am wrong, and some why I might not be. So I can now maybe stick around better and be sympathetic to the friends who do genuinely need it, which is the most important thing, I think.

needsahalo I'm really sorry you went through all that, but surely your ex-husband's behaviour goes way beyond 'having an affair'?

Honestly, I don't think my ex's behaviour was extreme. Pretty normal amongst my friends who have had an affair happen - I know a large number due to how I rebuilt my life. The affair is the catalyst, it is just the start for many. Guilt is a dreadful emotion to have to deal with so the projection, the rewriting history, is all pretty normal.