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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to not understand why "normal" people vote Tory?

999 replies

olddogsnewtricks · 18/04/2017 15:37

OK, so I'll probably get flamed for this but am genuinely interested! All the people I know who vote Tory are pretty well off so use private schools and healthcare. As a family we need the NHS and we need a good education system - and I can't see them getting any better under the Tories. Are these just not priorities for Tory voters or do they really believe they will improve even with a Conservative government?

OP posts:
JanetBrown2015 · 19/04/2017 13:09

I would not reject a universal income, scary. The difficulty is it encourages the lazy to stay lazy though and we have very very low productivity in the UK with lots of people working short hours.

if it were coupled with say a £10k benefits cap and the universal income went to everyone ocver 18 not matter how rich and was instead of all other benefits I would support it. We could abolish a lot of complex tax reliefs at the same time and move to very simple flat (ideally capped) taxes too.

makeourfuture · 19/04/2017 13:11

Well can we not talk about racism? It does exist.

Alfieisnoisy · 19/04/2017 13:12

Hmm! I have friends who vote Tory and they do so for various reasons. I'd say political ignorance is rare among my friends.
Some do so because that's what they have always voted.
Some do because they believe in the Tory message of help people to help themselves.

One of them vote Tory out of a desire to be nasty to others. Some give generously of their time to help others.

Headofthehive55 · 19/04/2017 13:18

Unfortunately increasing low wages by increasing the minimum wage does put pressure on jobs slightly higher etc. So I don't think things are really that simple.
I do wonder if providing a better safety net does increase reliance on it. i don't know?

pumpkinpilot · 19/04/2017 13:19

" I repeat what are your solutions SCARYCAT?
You have a lot of opinions on what the Conservatives are doing wrong and on some you may be right, but what is the solution?"

You didn't ask me but hey when has that stopped me giving my opinion previously. :)

Lets scrap trident save the £250 billion + for education and the NHS.

We should introduce a tax on investment banking that would compensate us for the billions lost in the bail out.

Why not also get real about tax evasion like the IRS in America. They are hugely powerful and whilst there tax laws are not exactly enviable they are a force to be reckoned with.

I would also do away with the house of Lords stop subsidising and giving tax breaks to the royal family but these are more personal preferences really.

scaryclown · 19/04/2017 13:23

Well, I don't agree that the short hours work is a result of laziness, its partly because benefits are structured to encourage it, and because employers are trying to use shorter hours as much as possible.

There are two ways of looking at the 'chronic lazy' aspect though. One is that people are most 'lazy' when they find that work doesn't pay, and doesn't give you more and better leisure time - so if I work 40 hours a week and end up with effectively 'the minimum the government says its possible to live on' but with no extra leisure time, and no freedom to find higher paid work, or develop or pursue career development or education, the logical and sensible choice is to stop working - our employers shouldn't be offering so many jobs at a level where not working and starving is a better option than working full time FFS.

The second way of looking at it is that you accept that some people are chronically lazy, or ill, or otherwise completely ineffective/disorganised or unwilling to be productive. If you do accept this, current conservative policy is to force employers to accommodate those people into the main workforce, however damaging they are - by taking away food clothes and shelter from those people, so you either have reduced workplace productivity (as we have now) or you have genuine starvation and homelessness (as we have now). These both have massive social and economic cost - homelessness particularly, court cases, health burden, damage to town centre image and safety, drug abuse, hygiene issues etc.

The added benefit of a reasonable benefit economy is that someone in my position - highly educated, highly motivated, highly dedicated, but who is regularly overlooked and disadvantaged in the employment market, can better route their career, and develop themselves, or even add their skills to voluntary causes, or things they are just good at and passionate about rather than spend 24 hours a day thinking about whether you'll be able to eat at the end of the week.

On top of that last is what happens to the UK culturally when benefits will actually keep you alive - trainspotting, harry potter franchise, films, most of our national comedians, britpop, madchester etc etc all came out of a reasonable life-supporting benefits system where creative people can take an income hit whilst they find their feet.

Also you can't make economic decisions when you are literally scared of whether you will eat- you don't choose, you become max-dependent, so when you do get money, its much harder to manage successfully. - no pocket money won't make an investment banker, tiny bits and choices made as a result might.

Dragongirl10 · 19/04/2017 13:25

Well SCARY...........l agree with some of your solutions;
particularly The first, and second,
but restricting banker bonuses just means we lose them overseas and as they are taxed at 45% we also lose that tax injection, we may not like the extortionate amont they are paid but better in our coffers than anothers.
Like the CEO idea but probably hard to enforce.
Min wage has been increased twice by the Conservatives.
Agree getting rid of bloated civil servants/local gov.
Totally agree with Grammar school comment..

Must say your ideas are about as far away from Labour and LIB Dem ideology as l can imagine......dare l say closer to current party

Much more interesting to read than previous diatribe!

Maybe you should go into politics.....start a new party

Cupofteaandtoilet · 19/04/2017 13:26

I haven't rftt so might be repeating.

I have voted Tory in the past as I thought of them as a safe pair of hands. I was reluctantly persuaded that austerity was the best option following previous overspending. However, it appears that I was wrong.

And the 30 hours free childcare is unworkable nonsense, dreamt up at the last minute to woo voters in 2015. Anyone who voted on the basis of this was duped.

pumpkinpilot · 19/04/2017 13:29

You have my vote scaryclown I love your manifesto.

Headofthehive55 · 19/04/2017 13:43

I have unfortunately found that people will do as little work as they can get away with. unfortunately allowing people to have more freedom to do voluntary work does rather rely on others to pick up the grunt work (and perhaps doing jobs they don't want to in the process ) to allow others to have more freedom to choose.

KathArtic · 19/04/2017 13:44

Compel Mortgage companies to develop a share-based model of communal property ownerships to a. reduce single person households

Whats it got to do with Mortgage companies. If folk wan to live in communes or HMO then they will regardless. WTF do folk have to live together - If I can afford to live on my own in a 4 bed house I damn well will. You can't force people to live together just because it suits you!

chilipepper20 · 19/04/2017 13:44

Which part of the above is economic illiteracy?

I'd say all.

scaryclown · 19/04/2017 13:52

Headofthehive55 such bollocks! That's oxen.

I am working now - just changing opinion and perspectives for a cause I believe in (UK Efficiency).

I was working 30 hours in a very physical job but gave up as I was getting poorer than being on benefits. It was harder than nearly all of the jobs in the same place, but being completely knackered was better than realising the full horror and boredom of your situation over and over.

The reason i gave up was not because that work and effort was too much, it was because I didn't get fairly or even practically rewarded and was getting poorer than being on the dole.

I would have gladly worked in a role where I was more productive - but the employer wouldn't let me. More fool them.

chilipepper20 · 19/04/2017 13:52

our employers shouldn't be offering so many jobs at a level where not working and starving is a better option than working full time FFS.

that's not an employers role though. They are supposed to, in some way literally obligated to, get the best labour for the least price. So, we can do things like mandate minimum wage, or living wages, and while some enterprises will still viable, what that will do is simply price many people out of the labour market and make some industries impossible.

The government can instead tackle this problem from the other side: the cost of living. Unfortunately, both Tories and Labour (along with the BofE) are on an endless mission to increase the cost of living for all of us (in case you haven't noticed, housing is again out of control).

Headofthehive55 · 19/04/2017 13:57

Being on the dole because it's better surely isn't something we should be aiming for surely?

Headofthehive55 · 19/04/2017 14:03

I think there are lots of jobs offered where it's not possible to be full time. You wouldn't take a cleaner on full time most likely though.

chilipepper20 · 19/04/2017 14:04

Being on the dole because it's better surely isn't something we should be aiming for surely?

clearly not. But why would someone work for little benefit?

SomethingBorrowed · 19/04/2017 14:09

We donnt get any benefits, never have. We pay a lot of taxes. Our employer makes us contribute to a private healthcare (we can't opt out). Is it really surprising that we will be voting for the party that might cut benefits we don't get and won't increase the taxes we pay?

pumpkinpilot · 19/04/2017 14:29

"We donnt get any benefits, never have. We pay a lot of taxes. Our employer makes us contribute to a private healthcare (we can't opt out). Is it really surprising that we will be voting for the party that might cut benefits we don't get and won't increase the taxes we pay?"

If you look at the amount of tax spent on benefits and the NHS it is far from being the majority of expenditure by the government.

Would you really prefer a UK with no NHS just because you have some private healthcare?

If you look at western countries with privatised health the government expenditure is often higher per person than what we pay for the NHS.

If we continue down the route of privatisation of the NHS we will simply be paying private companies to provide healthcare instead of the NHS to those who cant afford to buy it privately.

There may be some cost efficiency savings but these will be insignificant compared to the margin of profit private healthcare providers will rake in.

lottieandmia · 19/04/2017 14:29

'We donnt get any benefits, never have. We pay a lot of taxes. Our employer makes us contribute to a private healthcare (we can't opt out). Is it really surprising that we will be voting for the party that might cut benefits we don't get and won't increase the taxes we pay?'

So I assume you are immunity to sickness, disability or other adversities that can happen to anyone through no fault of their own?

JanetBrown2015 · 19/04/2017 14:36

Neither Labour nor the Tories supports no NHS. that's the point. The left likes to suggest the Tories want to abolish the welfare state but of course that's not true. the Tories are very middle ground which is why May is so popular and will be elected.

I don't expect people who can get more by not working to work. it's the stystem not the person to blame for that.
By way my son's post man district is crying out for post people. and he earned about £26k last year which is above the benefits cap even for a family

HelenaDove · 19/04/2017 14:39

When ppl are offered extra hours they are often intermittent and inconsistent. And the system cant keep up.

A friend did some extra hours one week which fucked up her tax credits for six weeks while they "straightened things out" She was left living on £50 a week during that time. So the system isnt equipped to meet employers whims!

But during that time bills will still need to be paid.....schools will continue to ask for dinner money/school trip money/non uniform days.

lottieandmia · 19/04/2017 14:39

'The Tories are very middle ground'

Grin Grin
That's the funniest thing I've heard this year.

scaryclown · 19/04/2017 14:46

chilipepper20 sadly that's a playschool understanding of business -you can be forgiven, because its frighteningly rife.

An employers role is to maximise the productivity of the business. Part of that is maximising the productivity of the societies in which you operate.

There is little reason to pay someone leading office decision-consultation session with free coffee and cakes £30,000 to do unproductive work as there is to pay shelf stackers bugger all.

scaryclown · 19/04/2017 14:55

Where an employer is paying so little people can't afford to do the job, it is unlikely to be productive overall, since then you only get the utter crappiest employees, and therefore the most difficult to manage workforces, things like understocked supermarkets, wayward dishonest salespeople, bad food hygiene, substandard goods, wasteful employment practices, bad decision-making, poor attendance, high sick rates, high industry regulation, high levels of personal debt, drug dependency and 'check-out of society' behaviours, etc etc etc.. all of which businesses are currently hoping are picked up by the state - but increasingly without any contribution from those businesses to the state.

I'm all for no state - if wages are massive, or for high state if tax take is strong - we are attacking the poor and employees harder and harder, whilst congratulating businesses for spending on themselves. Its crazy

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