to ask how you feel when someone is at the opposite end of the faith spectrum?

[Morphene]

I've recently discovered two separate people I have been getting closer to (professional/friendship wise) are at the other end of the faith scale from me. I have actually felt a little upset and unbalanced by it.

IABU? I mean I know I am, but do other people get this? Does it make a difference if you are the one with or without faith?

I am sure I will still get on just fine with them, but I feel a little sadness that in this important respect we are very far from each others wavelength.

Most, not mower ffs!

leading the country? He regularly used to "talk to god" to find guidance. Someone voted for him

Tony Blair deliberately didn't talk about his faith during his time as prime minister and Alistair Campbell warned an interview that 'we don't do god' when they attempted that line of questioning.

The claim he sought guidance from God over the Iraq came after his premiership was over.

Also to reduce Blair's alledged popularity and electoral success to whether he had a personal relationship with God is absurd in the extreme.

So hackmum, you are disappointed to learn that they are stupid or less intelligent that you?

hidden As a prior student of quantum mechanics I have a lot of experience with the idea that things are not as they appear on the human scale. There is no rule that says that in order for a theory to truly predict the behaviour of the real world, it needs to be 'intuitive' to human beings. Take wave particle duality - does light behave like both a wave and particle? NO! it doesn't behave like either, or indeed anything that you could point at in your experience of the world. The mathematical theory works essentially perfectly though...it predicts the way the world works even though it makes no intuitive sense to the vast majority of human beings.

I have suffered from depression, and have experienced the sense of knowing with absolute certainty I was evil and should die for the benefit of everyone including my toddler daughter. When the crisis passed, I couldn't even understand how I could have thought that. The evidence was so obvious that it wasn't true. This leads me to believe that depression is a state of mind that fundamentally mis-represents reality. It doesn't mean that I have no respect for the depressed! On the contrary I have every respect for them as I have been there. But that doesn't mean you aren't going to have awkward conversations, conflicting ideas, and occasionally give offence when you converse between the NT and the depressed.

I am absolutely NOT saying that either religion or atheism is a mental illness, but it does seem to be another case in which there is a fundamental difference in brain function between the two states.

So for me there is no problem with having and respecting friends of faith, but I am aware of the difference between us, and worry that I need to be on guard for the inevitable crossing of purposes and misplaced comments, in a way that I don't have to think about at all if they are also atheists.

At my small workplace there is quite a high population of staff that are active CofE/Catholics, 'active' as in, they go to church every Sunday.

I'm an Atheist, I've only mentioned it once or twice when asked which church I attend but I don't discuss it otherwise out of respect.

However, several of my colleagues (workplace is nothing linked to the church) have commented in passing how 'sad' must be not to have a belief, and how do I know I don't believe if I haven't 'opened my heart to god'? And of course, they have also asked me, that without religion 'what's the point in life then?'.

It's very hard not to rise to these comments, but I don't. I simply play the peacekeeper and say that 'we all have own beliefs'

They are by no means representative of every person of belief, as this particular group often also spout ignorant comments that border on racism or homophobia. I do often wonder why they haven't bothered to learn the value of tolerance taught in their respective churches

Morphene, I was referring to evolution as the explanation for the existence of mankind and more broadly nature.

Morphene, do you not think that most people in the UK have a world view that is not particularly based on either Science or religion?

The thing is, how do work out if someone who has just told you they are Christian is 'culturally christian, its not a big thing, I mostly feel like God exists except on Monday mornings' or is a creationist. I am not being facetious but honestly I think you don't need to work out what box to put them in from powers of deduction- just have a conversation with them about what they believe and why. Doesn't need to be intense or the Spanish inquisition - just ask them next time you have a pint/coffee together or are chatting about the weekend. For instance asking "you mentioned church - do you go regularly? Have you always gone to church? Were you raised a Christian or is it something you decided later?" Actually my colleague asked me these types of questions the other day over lunch and it was a nice conversation and I didn't feel threatened.

Surely it doesn't matter if you are just chat over coffee colleagues?

how 'sad' must be not to have a belief, and how do I know I don't believe if I haven't 'opened my heart to god'? And of course, they have also asked me, that without religion 'what's the point in life then?'. How utterly arrogant of them. I say that as someone that is spiritual.

Any religious people that spout like that, please stop.

I don't care what faith or not someone has. So long as they don't lecture and can be respectful of the other persons beliefs that's what matters.

I didn't have a problem with others beliefs when I was an atheist and I still don't now that I am a deist OP. My friends are my friends for many reasons, similar belief in the existence of a god isn't one of them.

I think your strong reaction to your colleague's faith has shaken you up a bit. You have maybe discovered that you are more prejudiced than you thought you were? If this is the case, challenge yourself. Learn more, increase your awareness. Nothing challenges prejudice like knowledge.

My best friends growing up was a very strong Christian. I was and am an atheist. I'm got friends who I met through work who are devout muslims, right down to arranged marriages and wearing a hijab. Their religion hasn't affected our friendship.

Regarding friendships, I don't think I approach them with too many pre-conceptions.

The things I don't like are if people ask questions aggressively, if it feels like being tested somehow. I don't like it either if my responses are treated with incredulity or sneering. Situations where this type of behaviour occurs are embarrassing and would mean I was less likely to share anything personal.

It is not because I want others to agree with everything I say, or not share opposing opinions, but there is a way to do it kindly, that shows the person shares opposing views because they genuinely care about the other and think another perspective might be helpful to them.

A question to those who think that people of faith must be stupid or less intelligent than you: in what respect are they so? Maths, science, powers of deduction, reasoning, common sense, etc?

When you meet a professional who believes in God, do you doubt their capability? Eg, doctor, accountant, nurse, scientist, dentist, PM, lawyer, etc.

Morphene

I confess to an utter ignorance in the area of quantum mechanics and will take it as read that what you say is correct; but I don't think that disproves what I'm saying; you still (at least as far as I understand what you've written) seem to be saying that light behaves according to an intelligible and coherent set of principles, despite them being peculiar in the own right, they are still at least intelligible. I'm not saying that the principles themselves cannot be outside of ordinary experience, but that each set of coherent experiences we observe reflect an underlying principle that is given to the human intellect in a way we can grasp. This further suggests that there should be some (no matter how baffling or complicated or even simple) principle underlying reality as-such. This means that even if it is not a 'proof' of God, it at least suggests that such a position is not irrational. I.e.: that ordinary experience is that something that reflects a coherent set of experiences does not appear 'randomly' - it has an explanatory principle, even if that principle is very difficult to grasp. So experience of light behaving in a predictable manner has a coherent principle behind it, which you seem to be saying it does! Thus, even if you ultimately find the notion of a self-sufficient principle implausible, it should not seem utterly irrational for others to find it plausible.

As for being aware of a difference; I agree, there is a difference. I think that provided you don't actively think that those who believe in a God are irrational nutters, then you needn't worry about offending them. I'm sure that they (in all likelihood) will respect your atheism too. They may be just as curious about you as you are about them. And it might end up that you become very good friends with them. If you want to understand what it's like to have faith, you're probably going to get better information from a dynamic free-flowing conversation with them, than in a stilted start-stop conversation on a forum :).

When you meet a professional who believes in God, do you doubt their capability? Eg, doctor, accountant, nurse, scientist, dentist, PM, lawyer, etc

Not unless they start using their faith as a basis of their expertise. My Doctor is a Christian, but she treats my depression with Prozac, not laying on hands, praying to her god or other forms of faith heeling. If she tried doing any of the above, I'd start to worry about her competency.

"A question to those who think that people of faith must be stupid or less intelligent than you: in what respect are they so?"

I think Creationists are less intelligent than me. And the Creationist equivalents in other faiths too, before the "you wouldn't say that about other religions" people emerge. Because they are believing things which are easily demonstrably not true. But I don't generally think people of faith are stupid or less intelligent than me, no.

and worry that I need to be on guard for the inevitable crossing of purposes and misplaced comments, in a way that I don't have to think about at all if they are also atheists.
I think that is perfectly natural, it is also something that i apply to myself as a Christian. I am always aware that other people might be atheists and so therefore i also will not speak as freely as i would with theists. But i don't find it hard at all, the subject of religion never seems to come up anyway. If i was in your company, it wouldn't bother me at all about any "misplaced comments".

Live and let live is my motto. Imo it always seems to bother atheists about people being believers rather than the other way round.

Who are Creationists and which religion does isn't based on what you would say is 'easily demonstrably not true'? Which religion do you believe is based on a foundation that to you is demonstrably true or is it just Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc (ie, those who believe in God the divine creator) that you think are less intelligent than you?

We are part of this world /universe / creation, and as such cannot observe it in the same way you observe a science experiment. Therefore no defining conclusion can be reached by us without a leap of faith.

The people I find most difficult to be friendly towards are those who appear to have an immense pride in their own knowledge, beliefs and opinions - demoting any alternate way of thinking as inferior.

I also have a problem with myself when I start thinking this way about the people I think are like what I described above!

Indeed April and they cannot get their heads round the fact that those who believe in God are just as if not more intelligent than them. They can only make sense of things by trying their best to convince themselves that people who believe in God must be stupid.

It does bring a smile to my face because I don't understand how utterly bothered some atheists are by other people's belief in God.

because I don't understand how utterly bothered some atheists are by other people's belief in God.

Yes quite. At the same time I don't understand how some believers are so overly invested in atheists views.