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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask how you feel when someone is at the opposite end of the faith spectrum?

623 replies

Morphene · 16/04/2017 22:05

I've recently discovered two separate people I have been getting closer to (professional/friendship wise) are at the other end of the faith scale from me. I have actually felt a little upset and unbalanced by it.

IABU? I mean I know I am, but do other people get this? Does it make a difference if you are the one with or without faith?

I am sure I will still get on just fine with them, but I feel a little sadness that in this important respect we are very far from each others wavelength.

OP posts:
DevelopingDetritus · 17/04/2017 11:33

I think as you get older you feel more live and let live, well hopefully anyway.

The number of big unanswered questions is drastically reducing year on year. oow, so much still to learn, haven't we all though.

to ask how you feel when someone is at the opposite end of the faith spectrum?
almondpudding · 17/04/2017 11:33

Apologies, Misstic.

Morphene · 17/04/2017 11:36

hidden The conversation I had with the evangelists indicated to me that just coming from an entirely different place with totally different axioms can lead to offence though....

We just kept coming up against statements and concepts that simply don't exist in the other world view. Now that was a 60 min conversation and we were both heavily geared to expect and tolerate difference and diversity, not just a random conversation over coffee.

It feels really uncomfortable to me when someone says they 'thank god for their recovery' because I can;t imagine feeling that way. I think it was equally uncomfortable for them when I asked 'how could end up feeling anxiety, when you have an all powerful being backing you?' . It is a genuine question and one I still don't understand, but the idea obviously didn't 'fit' and made her uncomfortable.

I very much understand that you don't have conversations like that with friends every day, but the sensation of disconnect when people have very different underpinning assumptions can still crop up.

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almondpudding · 17/04/2017 11:38

You would have to be a very close friend to ask someone personal questions about anxiety!

DevelopingDetritus · 17/04/2017 11:40

'how could end up feeling anxiety, when you have an all powerful being backing you?' Still a human being with weakness and ego.

LordAnthony · 17/04/2017 11:41

Depends what you mean by 'opposite end of the faith spectrum' if you mean a fundamentalist of the Westboro Baptist Church variety then no i couldn't be friends with them as their views on homosexuality, women's rights etc appall me.

However, most religious people i know don't fall into this category, don't proselytise, are intelligent and flexible enough to understand that their holy book is reflective of the time and place in which it was written and are critical of their church's stance on some issues. They know I'm an atheist and respect that.

Could i have a relationship with a commited religious adherent? Possibly not, especially if sex and living together before marriage was an issue for them. I wouldn't marry someone without knowing i was domestically and sexually compatible with them.

aprilsdelight · 17/04/2017 11:43

I often wonder why atheists seem to have these issues with people who believe in God. On these threads they give up so much time and energy into scorning/belittling those who believe. I often wonder why it bothers them so much (understandable if people are trying to ram their religion down their throats, but i highly doubt it)
Is it because deep down in their sub-conscious they feel a little niggle, a gnawing away, a little nagging doubt that won't go away....

Maybe God is actively pursuing you......just a thought.

Thissowasnttheplan · 17/04/2017 11:44

Fuck me, I've alwAys been in a gang of one with my worldviews. Just as well I don't feel uncomfortable around people expressing different views as me or I'd have nae pals

Morphene · 17/04/2017 11:45

The existence of evolution is definitely a fact. You can watch it happening in colonies of bacteria over the course of weeks.

Are all areas of the current state of the art theory going to survive the test of time and new evidence? Of course not.

There is the underpinning concept which is indisputable, then there are the details and wrinkles and new discoveries waiting to be made.

People shouldn't 'believe' in evolution, they should 'understand' it and if they have the talent they should 'improve' and 'extend' it.

All of this shows exactly how scientific endeavour is a different thing to faith and serves an entirely different purpose.

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Morphene · 17/04/2017 11:47

developing could you expand on that? I guess I don't know if there is something beyond 'the good stuff about me comes from God, the bad comes from me/devil'

Is there something fundamentally different than that in your understanding?

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DevelopingDetritus · 17/04/2017 11:49

I think if you're stuck into one mindset you aren't open to other possibilities, because there might actually be some.

BertrandRussell · 17/04/2017 11:52

"purple well maybe not in my work place...but in the country, yes. Those claiming to be Christian are in the majority, let alone when you sum up all faiths."

They aren't, actually. The census question has been shown to be flawed.

But in answer to your original question. I would find it very difficult to have any sort of relationship with the Young Earth Creationist type of person. But I have lots of friends who have faith of various sorts. I couldn't- I think- have a life partner who had faith. But I couldn't have a life partner who was very right wing either. Or a misogenyst. There has to be at least a nominal meeting of minds.

Morphene · 17/04/2017 11:52

aprils Grin for some reason I don't agree that the occasional aggression of the atheists is a reaction to God poking them.....

Is there an answer to why atheists exist beyond 'God did the best they could, but some humans are just too stupid/evil to listen'? Or are we here as a learning point/challenge for the faithful? A sort of non-player character adding to the depth of the environment....

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Zafodbeeblbrox10 · 17/04/2017 11:52

If there are so many confirmed atheists, why was tony blair given so much support whilst leading the country? He regularly used to "talk to god" to find guidance. Someone voted for him.
Religions and their followers can cause big problems.
But it is also strange how many people find god when they are sent to jail, or want to be administered the last rites on the deathbed. In fact I can't even remember going to an atheist's funeral!

BroomstickOfLove · 17/04/2017 11:53

I'm a Christian, DP is an atheist, my best friend is a pagan. It's not a problem. But actually, we share very similar world views. It depends how how you lol at the faith spectrum. In one way, you could describe all three of us on one end of a spectrum with a lot in common, and people like my Christian fundamentalist colleague and militant atheist mother together at the other end. And I do find it harder to relate to people at that end of the spectrum.

hackmum · 17/04/2017 11:54

Misstic: "Hackmum, may I ask why? Disappointed in what?

What about a person having a belief in God causes you such discomfort?"

It's like discovering that someone believes in fairies. I simply cannot understand how someone can believe in something so self-evidently ludicrous. It immediately makes me think less well of them, even though I may like them or otherwise enjoy their company.

Morphene · 17/04/2017 11:54

developing I don't understand your post? Are you saying you won't answer because you believe I won't listen?

I would very much like to understand what it feels like to have faith! Of course it might be like explaining colour to someone blind from birth, but I don't think just standing there saying 'there's no point trying' is particularly open minded.

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BertrandRussell · 17/04/2017 11:54

"In fact I can't even remember going to an atheist's funeral!"

That is a statement extraordinarily crashing ignorance!

Morphene · 17/04/2017 11:59

broom yup that is more what I meant about the spectrum. It has militancy at both ends and quite a lot of space in the middle where you probably can't tell without deep inspection and many ideas overlap.

The thing is, how do work out if someone who has just told you they are Christian is 'culturally christian, its not a big thing, I mostly feel like God exists except on Monday mornings' or is a creationist.

Asking if people get evolution would be a reasonable test, but in a room full of scientists its a dangerous strategy that could indeed lead to someone being shunned - which isn't the goal at all.

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DevelopingDetritus · 17/04/2017 11:59

Or are we here as a learning point/challenge for the faithful? A sort of non-player character adding to the depth of the environment.... I believe we're here to learn, grow and love, every living thing has the life force/soul/god in them/it.

almondpudding · 17/04/2017 12:02

I imagine faith is like an internal congruence between things that a person finds meaningful in a cultural, moral and psycholoical sense, with the addition of a supernatural component.

I don't find that greatly different than having all of that without a supernatural component.

I also know some religious people don't have a psychological sense of it and believe in God without direct experience of the feeling of God.

LoupGarou · 17/04/2017 12:02

Morphene I don't mind trying to explain what having faith feels like for me, if you genuinely want to know.
For me, when life gets rough, or bad things happen which I can't change its a sense of peace, like snuggling on the sofa with a duvet when you're I'll, or lying on a beach, alone somewhere with the sun warming you through and just the sound of waves. Perfectly comfortable with no pain, that sort of deep inner peace and calm. I guess for me its similar to meditation.
It is a place to retreat to mentally, to recoup strength when I've been knocked down and to give me the mental breathing space to be able to pick myself back up again and dust myself off.

hiddenmnetter · 17/04/2017 12:02

Morphene

I'm not suggesting that infinite recursion implies the need for a God - i'm simply saying that infinite recursion is counter-intuitive to the everyday experience that indicates that all coherent experiences require a principle that explains them. As no naturally observable principle can be self-sufficient, it is at the very least plausible, and thus at least can be considered reasonable, to believe that there is a self-sufficient principle which underlies what we can experience. What I am hoping that addresses is the first potential objection: people who believe in God are fundamentally unreasonable or irrational (as others, though not yourself have suggested). I hope that with that you can consider that at least believing in God is not a fundamentally unreasonable position, and that people can find it a perfectly reasonable and plausible position to hold, even if you disagree yourself.

That said, if your main issue is with the particular religion that one adhere's too via whichever particular revealed theology they believe then that requires a great deal more understanding. I can only speak from my own perspective here, which is Roman Catholic, although I would hazard that I could mount a reasonable defence of most Protestant theology as well (even if I disagree with it!). I am far, far less au fait with non-Christian religions.

As for the notion of supporting an institution which is corrupt, then I think that you and I would generally agree. Corrupt and immoral behaviour degrades both the individual and the institution to which they belong. As to whether or not the actual set of beliefs that institution holds necessarily means such corruption is a part of it, or if corruption is simply a reflection of the human condition that affects all; sinners and saints alike, then I think it's a different question.

And as for your disconnect about people saying 'Thank God for their recovery', I think that unless you believe that there is a revealed God who cares for and loves His creation, then yes, it would seem anathema to thank a God who you do not consider exists. I am not saying here that I think God is solely and 100% responsible for the recovery of all persons - medical staff and technology of course have a great deal to do with it, but that does not mean that the final call to death does not also have something to do with God. That is however something I imagine we are unlikely to agree on.

That said - is it such a crucial issue that you believe the friendships which have developed have to be cooled or soured over it? Surely it is possible to be friends with religious people, or even Brexiteers or conservatives? They may not be your best friends in the whole world, but that doesn't mean you can't maintain a reasonable discourse with them, to share your hopes and dreams and thoughts and feelings without expecting to be trashed or laughed or dismissed? If you felt that was likely then of course I would not want to be friends with such people either; I am more concerned that the people I choose to be friends with are people that I can share the most intimate parts of my life with; my wife foremost among them, but a few others too. If i felt I was to be mocked for who I was, then I would cease to be friends with those people as well. Otherwise, perhaps these people are people you can be friends with, good friends, loyal, kind and thoughtful people who will love you and support you, even if you have different ideas about who or what originated the universe?

almondpudding · 17/04/2017 12:03

Cultural Christians don't believe in God.

LoupGarou · 17/04/2017 12:05

The thing is, how do work out if someone who has just told you they are Christian is 'culturally christian, its not a big thing, I mostly feel like God exists except on Monday mornings' or is a creationist.

Isn't that the same for mower friendships or relationship though? You could start being friends with someone only to find they are an avid KKK follower, its the getting to know someone where you find out - you don't have a list of questions or an interview up front do you? Though perhaps that would be easier!