To wonder if I'm failing my kids by bringing them up to be 'nice'

[Frazzledmum123]

Something I've been wondering about a lot since my son started school really, sorry this is long...

I have 3 children, and the older two (the youngest is a baby still) are, if I do say so myself, wonderful kids. They have their faults of course but they are very well behaved, thoughtful children in general. TBH I used to feel a bit smug because I know and have been told by teachers that they come across well. However, I've increasingly noticed that actually, good guys don't win.

My son who is 6, really struggles socially. He is liked by most kids but if I'm honest I guess he isn't exciting to them as he'd never do something he knew he shouldn't. I've noticed that the kids who all the others fall over themselves to be friends with are actually the ones who can be mean and play up in class. Even those who are nice kids but a bit naughty seem to do better. I consoled myself last year that being good meant he was picked by the teacher to do things so was getting more opportunities but this year he just seems to be fading into the background, all the naughtier ones (I've helped out in class so I know which ones they are) seem to get more attention and even more rewards as an encouragement when they do behave. It didn't seem to bother my son for a while but recently he seems desperate to be part of the 'in crowd' and it broke my heart when recently he burst into tears (he's not really a crier) because they told him to go away when he tried to join in

My middle child, a daughter, is a bit more advanced with her social skills but even at her nursery I've noticed it's the naughty ones who are always in a crowd

So I'm starting to wonder if actually, by bringing them up to behave, I've actually massively failed them in terms of their happiness? They will probably do well enough academically because they listen and try which is what I always thought was important but actually I'm starting to wonder if it is. In the real world, as much as we'd like to think doing well is a nice job etc, I'm wondering if those who are happiest are the ones who are popular and did a bit more, exciting/ naughty things as kids

Really really not meant as a stealth boast about my kids, I'm genuinely feeling really sad at the moment that I may have got things so wrong for them. Even tried telling my son it's ok to do things you aren't always sure you should occasionally but he just would never be able to bring himself to do that

Just to add that I think it's counter productive to try and raise your kids to be high achieving. One thing I do remember at school is those kids who had the weight of expectation from their parents, they were miserable and suicidal in secondary.

Thanks for all the replies too, I'm going to read them properly later on but I do appreciate people's input. It's something I've wondered about in the adult world too, some of the big bosses at my place are complete knobs and I've wondered why they get to be so successful. I've always been of the same opinion that the world needs more good guys but then recently I've started to wonder why making yourself happy at any cost shouldn't be prioritised over making others happy. Not something I will ever be able to do but just something I've thought about!

It does seem to be a gender issue more than much else - boys are the most bullish and girls tend to be taught better manners (over generalising but it does seem to be a theme on this thread). I agree that the boys told not to cry are in a very tough situation - male suicide rates are highest atm and we need to remember that boys are human and have to be able to express pain. This is perhaps all linked to why they don't do so well later in life...

You are mixing up what is attractive in people. It's not naughty or nice, it's self assurance the kids are mistakenly thinking the naughty kids have and are drawn to. As they get older they will recognise the difference between self assurance and naughty.

So just focus on giving your kids confidence and that combined with being nice will go a long way.

Just be aware there is also a difference between being nice and being weak.

Kind and assertive I think is the best way.

I think from the replies maybe I'm over thinking it a bit. My husband tells me not to worry because he never liked the popular kids and so never wanted their friendship. My son is happy most of the time, it was just seeing him so desperately try and fit in and fail. I have suggested to him that he learns sport for the social part and he thought about it and decided he would but I don't think it's him and I don't want to change him, he's quirky too and I love him exactly how he is. I'll see if he enjoys it though

In case anyone hasn't worked it out already, I'm an obsessive worrier when it comes to my children

recently I've started to wonder why making yourself happy at any cost shouldn't be prioritised over making others happy

Because we are social beings and don't operate in isolation. There has to be a balance.

My Dd was popular at primary but has a lot of problems at secondary where the popular ones are horrible and getting into bad things already. I've told her to avoid them and go with the quieter ones although she's quite loud. She actually looks up to the geeky and quieter ones because she is not bright and knows she can sometimes be annoying when she is over the top.

I do impress not letting mine be a pushover. Ds is not overly bothered about popularity which is just as well and likes his own company

Thanks jaxing I think you are right, I'll continue to work on confidence x

Sleepfree - totally agree about the over achieving part, my parents got this just right imo, encouraging without pressure. I hope I'm the same

Reported

Onemorecup- your son sounds a lot like mine, I'm so glad it has worked out for him x

His school by the way is lovely but last year his teacher was more old fashioned so my son fitted in very well with her and benefited from being so well behaved. This year his teacher seems to like the cheeky ones more so they get picked, then the challenging ones get attention and those who are a bit behind are encouraged with rewards which is lovely but my son just doesn't fit in to any of that so doesn't seem to be benefitting from doing as his told

yes. you are failure

As are you. Totally uncalled for

Sounds a bit "if you can't beat them, join them" to me. Today's ociety is selfish and self-centred enough without you rearing more of them. Let them be nice. We need more nice.

Society

Tteaching children it is important to be true to themselves is far more important than worrying about them being popular, imo. The great leaders in society went against the crowd. Think Boudicca. Think Joan of Arc.

Both my boys are nice and polite, both went through phases of wanting the approval of the cool kids, but seem to be realising it isn't worth the drama, and if you are kind and friendly and seek out similar people, life is much happier. At school I wanted to be accepted, but I wasn't cool at all, and made friends with a lovely group of girls, not 2-faced and bitchy like the 'in' crowd. 25 years on we are still good friends, even though we are geographically spread out (as far as Dubai and Switzerland) we still get together once a year at least. Much better to have a few true friends than loads of fairweather ones.

"The most popular boy though is not nice a lot of the time, he is mean to others, not just my son but they just all seem desperate to please him"

It's a power thing that happens to the Alpha Male/Queen Bee. (most of the time) Because they are popular they get away with being a bit horrible. I have seen their parents really hammer down on the meanness, but the parents can't be everywhere. Kids further down the pecking order don't get to do that, they have to be nicer to maintain their social status.

Being horrible doesn't make the kid popular... being popular allows the popular kid to be horrible.

I'm bringing my children up to be caring......to notice the child on their own and offer to play, to help people. X

I work with 10/11 year olds and I don't agree with what you are saying.

If I think about the children I know the most popular ones tend to be good all-rounders- generally quite able, often sporty but mainly they are fun people in that they have a good sense of humour and will always have a go at things and don't take themselves too seriously. As another poster said some people just have something about them that makes them likeable, charisma I suppose.
They are generally well behaved but not goody two shoes types, if you know what I mean. If I think about the most popular boy and girl in my class they are just really lovely people and I think others want to be like them which is why they like them.

..to notice the child on their own and offer to play, to help people.

Whilst noble - there is often a reason these kids are lonely - as they find out to their detriment

Sometimes and you could also end up as an adult, swatting away waifs and strays because you are the only one who'll give them time of day. I think there's also a danger in feeling responsible for another's wellbeing and feel resentful

have a good sense of humour and will always have a go at things

This, I'm also sure that sometimes the things they have a go at are naughty, but naughtiness is a big spectrum. Strict adherance to rules in all situations and being the policeman when you don't have the authority (ie kids telling other kids not to do something 'cos they think it's wrong, when it might not be) is generally unpopular with everyone.

I'm not sure about this to be honest. It's giving me pause for thought. I wouldn't say it was naughty versus nice as that's not my experience, all kids are naughty at some point and plenty of nice kids and quiet ones in class have large social circles.

I'd have to say maybe it's more a social skill issue. He's only six. Did he go to nursery or develop peer social skills before he went to school? Maybe if he didn't and was in a predominantly adult environment His behaviour is learned snd he simply needs to develop peer social skills as well. There is a whole world of difference between how s child interacts with parents v how they interact with kids their own age. And if they have never learned that difference they may well be struggling.

You've taken this all very well, OP

I think that popularity within a group depends as much on the group as on the individual, iyswim. In some groups, depending on dynamics, it's the all-round good eggs who are well-liked - ds2's class is like this. In others, it's the alphas, who may not be very nice people, who are 'in' or define themselves as such (ds1's class is like this, but there are also well-liked good eggs in it).

You can support your dc to register how others behave and choose their friends wisely. Enlist teachers to help if dynamics are getting out of hand and tipping over into bullying and exclusion. Extra-curricular activities away from school can help widen their horizons beyond the school universe, which can feel so all-consuming sometimes, and improve their confidence.