To wonder if I'm failing my kids by bringing them up to be 'nice'

[Frazzledmum123]

Something I've been wondering about a lot since my son started school really, sorry this is long...

I have 3 children, and the older two (the youngest is a baby still) are, if I do say so myself, wonderful kids. They have their faults of course but they are very well behaved, thoughtful children in general. TBH I used to feel a bit smug because I know and have been told by teachers that they come across well. However, I've increasingly noticed that actually, good guys don't win.

My son who is 6, really struggles socially. He is liked by most kids but if I'm honest I guess he isn't exciting to them as he'd never do something he knew he shouldn't. I've noticed that the kids who all the others fall over themselves to be friends with are actually the ones who can be mean and play up in class. Even those who are nice kids but a bit naughty seem to do better. I consoled myself last year that being good meant he was picked by the teacher to do things so was getting more opportunities but this year he just seems to be fading into the background, all the naughtier ones (I've helped out in class so I know which ones they are) seem to get more attention and even more rewards as an encouragement when they do behave. It didn't seem to bother my son for a while but recently he seems desperate to be part of the 'in crowd' and it broke my heart when recently he burst into tears (he's not really a crier) because they told him to go away when he tried to join in

My middle child, a daughter, is a bit more advanced with her social skills but even at her nursery I've noticed it's the naughty ones who are always in a crowd

So I'm starting to wonder if actually, by bringing them up to behave, I've actually massively failed them in terms of their happiness? They will probably do well enough academically because they listen and try which is what I always thought was important but actually I'm starting to wonder if it is. In the real world, as much as we'd like to think doing well is a nice job etc, I'm wondering if those who are happiest are the ones who are popular and did a bit more, exciting/ naughty things as kids

Really really not meant as a stealth boast about my kids, I'm genuinely feeling really sad at the moment that I may have got things so wrong for them. Even tried telling my son it's ok to do things you aren't always sure you should occasionally but he just would never be able to bring himself to do that

Sleepfreezone Btw we need more kindness in the world not arseholes

I couldn't agree more

I am also trying to raise my child to be nice - he is still very little though so who knows what he will be like. Your son is also very little too.

As a teacher, though, I can say that the nice kids actually turn out to be the most well-rounded in the end. My subjects are such that I teach a lot of sixth form and by this point you can start to see what sort of adult they'll turn out to be. The ones who were a bit rebellious and "cool" lower down might still be to a certain extent, but it tends to be on the wane. Teenagers of this age do seem, in their own way, to value nice, kind attributes amongst their peers as well.

Being nice and being able to stand up for yourself aren't mutually exclusive, either. Your son is still young enough for you to instill independence and the ability to fight his own corner. But kindness and thoughtfulness are very important too and these are qualities that will see him through life; school is only a tiny part of this.

There's quite a lot of this sort of OP on MN atm. 'Am I being a bad mother/failing my kids by [insert obvious instance of 'good' parenting]' - followed up by 'Perhaps they won't fit in at parties/sleepovers/playdates if they hate burgers and chips and all they will eat is hummus and olives' or something about how fabulous others think their kids are. OP, I know you say you didn't mean it like this, but it does rather have the effect of making people who also bring up their children to be 'nice', but whose kids have rather different personalities and while they may well have a robust moral compass in their own way generally aren't thought of by teachers or the world at large as 'nice' - of even parents whose children do unpleasant things which to them are inexplicable because they haven't brought their children up that way - feel a bit rubbish.

I think you know how you want your children to be, and who would actively teach their children not to be 'nice'? I also think you rather categorise and stereotype the children your dc are surrounded by instead of understanding that everyone's route to adulthood is different and some are bumpier than others. You're not going to produce anything but a confused and rudderless child if your teachings go against your convictions. Yes, they need tools to cope with life, diplomacy and self-assertion where appropriate, but a moral compass isn't called a compass for nothing.

FWIW, my elder two have both pushed boundaries in different ways, have both been picked on and the pickers-on (for which latter I came down on them like the proverbial ton of bricks) at various points in their school careers so far, neither have been in the 'in group' although ds2 now looks as if he is assimilating well into a particular friendship group. Ds1 is firm friends with the two other 'nerds' of the class and refers to them not without a degree of pride as 'outsiders' - they have different (geekier) interests and higher abilities than the dominant group and have come to appreciate that about themselves. 'Naughty' and 'nice' are a lot more complex than they might look to you.

I've had conversations with a school mum friend about this recently. Our children are kind (commented on by the school staff, children and other parents). Yet it is our children who are being bullied right now. The children who aren't kind, even nasty at times, are the popular ones. They are the "bullies". (I use quotation marks because I was in some respectme training recently and we mustn't label children).

Primary 6. Still another year to go before secondary, where I hope things will improve as there will be a greater number of children.

At the moment I'm trying to work on confidence and resilience for DS and DD.

One of my siblings tells my mum her biggest failing was bringing us up to be too nice! We all struggle to be assertive and will often put others needs before our own (no matter how unhappy it makes us). My mother's mantra was always 'be kind, be kind, be kind'. I don't feel like my brother though, I'm acutely aware that I struggle to be assertive (for fear of upsetting people) and how this has impacted certain things (mainly work) but I think it's served me well in marriage and with friends. At the end of the day, most decent people respond well to and appreciate kindness so I think it's a good thing.

Being too passive and lacking the ability to assert yourself when needed is a problem.

Being a kind, pleasant, co-operative person (but not a doormat) will lead to a positive long term future.

I doubt very much that DS1 (6) is cool, but since starting school, its the same small cast of names that get mentioned. The impression that I get is that he is well liked but not necessarily a favourite. That's useful for things like group work where friendship groups are split up. He reminds me of myself where I didn't follow the herd, and didn't need a bunch of groupies to accompany me with everything. I followed my own agenda and was happy for complimentary company to join in with that.

As a society we generally value extroverted behaviour because the dominant people generally are extroverted. We're not so good at recognising the value of introverted behaviour. Both ends of the scale have their advantages and pitfalls, but introverted isn't often as worrying as people believe.

Your kids are who they are and they sound wonderful. I was brought up to be'nice' and your kids sound a bit like me as a child. And I did get pushed out a bit - but you know what? I grew up to have a great life, job, family etc. Not being big-headed I'm generally very happy and blessed so I don't think overall I've suffered as a result of being 'nice'. The mean kids at school? Can't say I'd want their lives now! You've obviously raised great kids

My dc are grown now. But l was always telling them to be kind to everyone. Hate children being left out..There was a guy in dc3s class who was a handful. Ds was the only boy who invited him to parties. Maybe as a teacher l felt l could manage him. His parents were delighted. I was pleased my dc was nice and not mean. Roll on a few years my ds came to me very seriously and asked is it okay if l leave this boy out as he is always in trouble and l dont want to be around him any more. I realised l had made a mistake teaching him to be so nice as he was actually upset leaving him out. I had ovdrdone the niceness thing.
Also dc can have lots of fun play sports very competitively and still be kind..l would never discourage my boys or girl from tackling in football or playing their very best just to be nice. I myself had to recover from being too nice as an adult. People were walking all over me.

I agree wth the OP that the nice, non disruptive kids in class are the Ines who get the attention.
And if for whatever reason your nice kid actually needs support they won't get it because it won't even get noticed....
This certainly has been my experience with my two dcs. So much time and effort spent dealing with the ones who create the mess.
Unfortunately this is also true in secondary......

However, please do remember that LONG TERM, it's your dcs that will succeed. Not the Ines who are create mayhem or are part of the 'cool' gang.
Be ready too for that to become more and more of an issue as they head towards Y6. The I portance of being part of the cool kids seems to grow exponentially.
Until they arrive in secondary and they meet children that are just as 'uncool' but nice as they are.

Further to some of these replies - it's interesting how many people are equating people-pleasing with being 'nice' and 'kind'. People-pleasing doormatness and passivity is sometimes one of the cruellest and most selfish ways to behave. We see it all the time on here. Husbands who don't stand up to their mothers/families, leaving their wives in sometimes intolerable situations. Mothers who have taught their daughters to put up with shit in relationships. People getting into dreadful fixes over issues that could have been sorted early on with a bit of polite plain speaking because they are afraid to say no or 'that doesn't work for me'. People expecting their spouses to sort out life for them because they don't feel able or entitled to tackle things themselves. Being a doormat often equates to wanting a quiet life. And (only slightly exaggerating here) a lot of evil has been done in the name of a quiet life.

I think kids have a sense about others and gravitate accordingly

You are limited by the class they go into because every class is different.

The popular kids in DD junior school are having a hard time in high school because they don't know how to be a good friend, how to be kind. How today's actions affect tomorrow's friendships.

Your son will learn, but you need to invite one friend at a time for tea - to allow him to build on the friendships - believe me the other parents are doing it and it has a huge effect on them being picked etc in class

I hear you op. There was a thread a few weeks ago of similar vain.
I wonder if I've done a disservice to mine too, they are good, polite respectful. But the ones who seem to "get ahead" are the ones who push in, the louder more forceful kids. The Ones who push to the front of the line but the parents say nothing or encourage it, not the thoughtful by stander.

I hope it levels out as they get older and in adult life.

Haybales - I know exactly what you mean. We were out with a couple last night who were saying ' oh it's just so hard for our 13 yr dd. She's just so cool, and intelligent, and independent and all the other girls, every single one-makeup wearing, go with the crowd, don't want to be friends with her. Poor her'

Do behave.

I taught my kids to avoid the popular crowd - tends to be a fight over top dog - who has the latest phone/hair accessory makes the list depending on the day - friendships aren't like that in grown up land - they are steady made out of respect understanding and laughter -

Keep your nice kids nice - let the others have chaotic social lives

I've taught my DC to be kind, polite and co operative.

I cannot stand meanness of spirit so stamp on that like cockroaches.

But I've always encouraged assertiveness and joi de vivre. Standing quietly, expecting a fair crack of the whip is a recipe to be ignored in life.

My mum died a couple of years ago. Before she died she said that she was sorry she had bought me up to be a "yes" girl and that I was always trying to please people and getting trodden on. I do understand OP, but we can't let the baddies win! X

I've wondered this too. As a child I was very polite and was always told I had brilliant manners. However as an adult I get walked over a lot. My dd is very strong willed and also kind. She had a friend in reception who was also very kind, however they fell out constantly. I couldn't understand why as the other girl seems to be so kind. Over the years it transpires the other girl was always morally bleating to teachers "so and so did this here, look!" and didn't have much of an imagination. Dd somehow got that you don't need to do this all of the time and found it awkward. She wanted to be a little naughty and have fun, basically, but still be kind when it mattered. It is a balance and I think imagination has a lot to do with being 'naughty' or testing boundaries sometimes.

I think both kids and teachers like the children who have bit of spark and personality about them, including sometimes being naughty/cheeky. Relentlessly disruptive ones are no fun of course, but equally the quiet well behaved passive ones fade into the background a bit.

Hay bales - you are right and my title should have been worded better. I'm really not saying only the well behaved ones are nice. I think I'm mixing two aspects really, kindness and obedience. Some of the boys in his class are quite a handful but I do really like the vast majority of them, and even the one who is mean has been nice occasionally so he's not inherently bad, I actually like his mum too and know she does a good job. But he can be very mean, hurtful to other children, telling them their work is rubbish, their clothes (on non school uniform days) aren't nice, they can't play, they are stupid etc. Yet he is popular and I don't get it! So I've wondered if being nice in that respect is actually so important

Then the obedience thing - this is the majority of his class. Lovely kids but not always doing as they are told. I don't think my son is better than them (well I do but only in a normal mum way!) but he is better behaved for teachers. This comes in part from wanting to please them and although it means he listens more and could technically be getting more out of the lessons, I'm not sure it's doing him any favours, the other kids ultimately are as smart and are nice kids so will probably do well but have more fun doing it

I'm aware my post does make it sound like I think I've done a fab job and I can't really see how to ask my question without implying that but believe me, I've been in tears thinking the complete opposite. I'm very proud of my children but I don't think good parenting is just how your kids are perceived, it's about raising them happy and I wonder if I'm doing the best for him in that aspect

In the end it works out for the best - my son is 18 now but had some difficulties in his early years. He was always a lovely kind boy but had a hard time because of this and got very hurt. He's a bit quirky so was always a little different and as a result experienced low level bullying and being left out of more popular groups. It could be quite cruel at times and I remember him being very distressed.
However, now he's 18 he has a huge circle of friends and a massive social life and a girlfriend. He is liked hugely by boys and girls alike. My friends all adore him and his teachers think he's great.
It all changes as they get older - just carry on parenting your DS the way that you are.

There are absolutely parents who don't bring their kids up to be nice. I see them around and about at soft plays and play grounds. The kids are encouraged to be bullish and physical, one father I was talking to explained to me that his 2 year old was being taught not to cry when hurt. His son then fell over and came to his dad crying and the dad told him to go away and pull himself together basically. It was pretty shitty behaviour but that was his view of how to raise a 'real' man.

Good guys do win. Trust me

Keep right on with what you're doing; your children will grow up blissfully happy, loving the world and all in it.

S x

Marking my place to read later. I've been thinking about this too.

My best advice is to encourage them to play competitive sport which will increase social skills and develop a winning as well as losing mentality.

My dc are grown up now and I am convinced this made them much more rounded. They are 'nice' people (we've been told this multiple times) but also don't get taken for a ride.

By losing mentality I mean they can lose with good grace.