To wonder if I'm failing my kids by bringing them up to be 'nice'

[Frazzledmum123]

Something I've been wondering about a lot since my son started school really, sorry this is long...

I have 3 children, and the older two (the youngest is a baby still) are, if I do say so myself, wonderful kids. They have their faults of course but they are very well behaved, thoughtful children in general. TBH I used to feel a bit smug because I know and have been told by teachers that they come across well. However, I've increasingly noticed that actually, good guys don't win.

My son who is 6, really struggles socially. He is liked by most kids but if I'm honest I guess he isn't exciting to them as he'd never do something he knew he shouldn't. I've noticed that the kids who all the others fall over themselves to be friends with are actually the ones who can be mean and play up in class. Even those who are nice kids but a bit naughty seem to do better. I consoled myself last year that being good meant he was picked by the teacher to do things so was getting more opportunities but this year he just seems to be fading into the background, all the naughtier ones (I've helped out in class so I know which ones they are) seem to get more attention and even more rewards as an encouragement when they do behave. It didn't seem to bother my son for a while but recently he seems desperate to be part of the 'in crowd' and it broke my heart when recently he burst into tears (he's not really a crier) because they told him to go away when he tried to join in

My middle child, a daughter, is a bit more advanced with her social skills but even at her nursery I've noticed it's the naughty ones who are always in a crowd

So I'm starting to wonder if actually, by bringing them up to behave, I've actually massively failed them in terms of their happiness? They will probably do well enough academically because they listen and try which is what I always thought was important but actually I'm starting to wonder if it is. In the real world, as much as we'd like to think doing well is a nice job etc, I'm wondering if those who are happiest are the ones who are popular and did a bit more, exciting/ naughty things as kids

Really really not meant as a stealth boast about my kids, I'm genuinely feeling really sad at the moment that I may have got things so wrong for them. Even tried telling my son it's ok to do things you aren't always sure you should occasionally but he just would never be able to bring himself to do that

As I told my dd. School for some people is the pinnacle of their life. It's such a short period of time really......

One of my DC was impulsive (called out in class, wrestled in the playground, touched things he shouldn't) in lower years. He still is a bit, he's actually lovely and not at all mean, just has some issues controlling himself. Here's the thing. He is not at all popular. He describes

I have a child with behaviour issues and at six it probably is fun to be around her. I'm just not sure it will be so fun in a few years when the friends realise she isn't 'normal'. Although she is very nice and caring. I suspect parents like you would label her as one of the naughty ones taking up the teacher's time.

I believe making sure they feel loved and secure at home makes a big difference in how they deal with school and relationships. If they are confident in themselves it will help them manage friendships and understand their own self worth. Most people aren't going to be the popular kid, but long term, being nice will get them further than being disruptive.

I think the thing is, what are you suggesting you might do? Teach them to be naughty? The reality is, you are bringing your kids up in a way you think best, and your kids are as they are. Throughout your DC's lives, there will always be the more popular, the more beautiful, the more clever from time to time. Even if your DC's are popular, beautiful and clever. There will always be kids who dont want to play with yours. This is a classic move. Kids bond by excluding others (adults too, come to think of it...,). If your DC's are well behaved, and doing OK at school, just thank your lucky stars. They'll be fine.

The lead kids in my kids classes have tended to be a lots of fun but not necessarily happy or considerate. They have often caused upset because they hold power and somehow manipulate situations. Sometimes they have ended up quite isolated though as children do eventually make judgment calls.

The best thing you can do is listen and help your child be resilient. Help him be drawn to other nice children.

I agree, my dd is in year 6 and is incredibly well behaved (at school, not so much at home!) and follows rules. She's had a tough time this year because her best friend is cheeky and naughty and likes to break rules and she just won't join in, she's been ostracised and teased over it, verging on bullying at one point.
But it is teaching her something, to be true to herself and not go along with what others are doing if she's not comfortable with it. It's a hard lesson, but a really valuable one I hope when peer pressure increases with teenage years.
To be honest, my ds, while very well behaved at home, is also very easily led and will do anything to make people laugh - he said the one I'm much more concerned about as they grow older.

Thanks so much for the replies, kids woke up just as I posted so when they are settled playing I will reply better but just a couple of things I want to respond to

The other kids aren't all naughty, sorry my op does imply that. There are a lot of very well behaved girls in particular and I don't mean the other boys are naughty naughty, just more cheeky, they are lovely kids but harder work I'd imagine, more what you'd call typical boys. The most popular boy though is not nice a lot of the time, he is mean to others, not just my son but they just all seem desperate to please him

I'm not saying I tell him to misbehave either just not to be so worried about always being perfect, the teacher telling him not to do something isn't the end of the world. He once wouldn't join in on a perfectly fine game as he wasn't sure if it was ok

He isn't a show off, he actually is hard on himself with achievements despite being quite smart but at the start of the year I did have to drum it into him to only tell on kids if they were hurting him or upsetting him rather than doing something he thought was wrong. I genuinely believe he is better at this now

I wouldn't say I'm overly strict but I'm hot on manners, can't bare ill mannered people. I try to be as relaxed as possible on other things though to balance it out. Probably more strict than some. I'm a people pleaser in a lot of ways and I do think I've perhaps I've brought them up to back down when I shouldn't, it's something I've tried to address the past year

I hope you are all right, some of it does come down to him not being as socially advanced as others his age. He does have lots of friends but they all have better friends if that makes sense, he's nobody's first choice. I was a bit like this as a child and I desperately wanted to be one of the popular people. I have a good life but not much confidence and this is something I really wanted to improve on for my kids. I agree some of the popular people have a bit of a rubbish time of it but some of them seem to be happy and their kids are now the popular ones at nursery!

Some people are too wrapped up in trying to ensure their kids are nice and polite and well mannered, they forget to teach them not to be a doormat.

I see that a lot. Some kids will ALWAYS gravitate to the back of the line, ALWAYS let others get something first, ALWAYS let others have first pick.

Part of our job and responsibility as parents is to raise our kids to be rounded and for them to become independent - to let them know that sometimes you NEED to be pushy (for want of a better word), that it is OK to say YOU want something, and not let everyone else get what they want first.

It is good to be nice, but everyone will not stand back and let you have a turn - life is not like that

I do sound a bit pathetic above I know, just want my kids to be happy and when I was young, that meant being popular to me

It's a good thing though really. Mine are the same as yours, so I empathise completely - fade into the background a bit, not members of any cool tribe. Stay in at weekends and not at parties but lovely , thoughtful children, especially DS2 who also works really hard at school. But seem to have no particular friends. No teacher has ever said either are unpopular or unhappy at school.

Occasionally DS2 feels sad and left out. And DS1 makes quips about having 'no friends'.

When I reflect on my school days, I partied and flitted from friendship group to clique to group and often felt rejected or sidelined, pretty much neglecting my bestest friend because she wasn't 'cool'. And when I read the thread about 15 yos drinking, I am quite glad my DS1 is not a socialite!

Being nice is good. Unless they are also very passive. It often seems (I am a teacher) as if the cooler, naughtier ones get all the attention (because that's what they carve) but when I look particularly at my A level classes, the nice ones prosper in the end :)

It depends on the school a lot I think. My children all have manners and are well behaved but the school my ds attends always, always picks the naughty horrible kids for everything, all the fun stuff. To stop them kicking off, basically. Or if they were not picked for the activity they wouldn't sit quietly like the good ones, so this makes it easier for the teachers My son said a while back 'if I start being naughty I'll get picked for loads more stuff' it's such a shite school. I left it too long before moving my child. If your sons school is doing this now, move him soon as you can to a different school because it will get worse.

But end of the day, your dc will grow up to be Lovely people with manners and values so you are being a great parent it's the school that is wrong.

I would like my 8 year old to be a bit 'nicer.' He is very impulsive, bossy and likes to be 'the best.' It doesn't make him popular at school. Quite the opposite in fact. Just yesterday we were out and bumped into a vague acquaintance and he and his brother got playing with her son. Except within minutes he was telling him 'I can do that better than you' etc and just not being very nice. He ended up cross that the boy started playing with him less and I ended up giving him a lecture on being nicer to children you've just met, and a time out to calm down. So I don't think he's better off not being nice. I think he'd be a lot happier if he could get over his bossiness and desire to be the best and just have fun with other kids.

Very good post, BeyondThePage

I know exactly what you mean OP and I'm pretty worried about this too. I've been pretty strict with my four year old when it comes to manners and kindness. Im worried he is going to get bullied at school as I haven't given him the correct tools to handle the 'mean kids'.

I was bullied from 8 through to 11 (we moved from a naice area to a pretty shit area) and life was very very hard for those three years. My only consolation is we are trying to get him into a really lovely rural primary where I think he will thrive, fingers crossed for next week!

Btw we need more kindness in the world not arseholes.

Besides which, at age 6 in can all be a bit superficial. I was never a school gate mum (this does have social disadvantages, definitely). The children who seemed to have solid friendship groups were often the ones whose mums were actually the friends - so they got thrown together by default. Some of those allegiances last; many don't.

It is fine to teach your child to be kind but do not teach him to expect the world to be kind.

Not in my experience at all. Kids fall over themselves to play with and be partners with the kind,fair children.

I do playground duty every day.

I'm wondering if your DC aren't coming over as nice as you think they are. Maybe they're a little sanctimonious or judgemental. Kids that tell others the right way to do things or who pull kids up do struggle at times with friendships ime.

That said to be honest you can't micro manage these things.

I'm really interested in this. I think I have taught my dd to be a doormat. I hate confrontation and am always the peacekeeper so will back down to keep the peace. I think I have taught my dd this is how she should behave and it's not helping her.
How do you teach them not to be a doormat and to stand up for themselves without getting in to trouble?

I think it's more to do with innate personality traits. My DD is very excitable, always up to mischief and looking for ways to have fun, and this is contagious to other kids. The downside is she doesn't focus well, is easily bored and often hyperactive.

I actively try to foster confidence. I don't have too many rules and restrictions. I encourage her to stand up for herself and monitor her social interactions closely (she's only 20months) in case older children intimidate or push her around.

My childhood was different, I was brought up to be very obedient and risk averse. Excitable behaviour was frowned upon.

I think it's good to let children express themselves and explore. Have a few ground rules but not too many. Teach the difference between being kind and being a doormat.

In my class of 30 all of the children are 'nice'. Every single one. Most people are 'nice'.
Some people just have more extroverted personalities than others and there isn't much you can do about that. As long as your ds has a few close friends he'll be fine. You don't need a massive crowd to be happy. Everyone is different.

I find this very interesting op, as my friends and I have discussed the same issues. I can see that in our school other children have been actively encouraged by their parents to push to the front and be first in line to grab something if it's on offer. Always the same kids.

My DD would never do this - I think it's a combination of us teaching her to think of others and be polite and her natural personality. She also hates things being unjust so would not want to join in with naughtiness and would tell the teacher if she saw say stealing or what she perceived as meanness. Unfortunately this probably makes her the quiet/ dull friend in the large group - not the most exciting one.

I want to teach her to stand up for herself more than I do ( I too am probably a people pleaser) but I don't want her to lose her natural caring instincts and the manners we have taught her. It's hard because I can see she'd be more popular if she was more pushy or bent the rules but I hate rudeness and seeing kids being " me, me, me" and I have definitely put that across to her.

I guess there are all kinds of adults when you look around and those who are pushy do appear to get more. I can only hope that the bigger picture is that "good guys do win" if they are happy and confident in their lives and choices. It's really hard at primary though!

BlackHillsofDakota I read a book called " Raising Confident Girls" and found it quite useful/ interesting.

My son is lovely and also has very challenging behaviour some of the time. We have had to work very hard to get him to where he is. All these things aren't mutually exclusive.

I totally get it OP and my DS is in a very similar position. He has friends but because I taught him to be polite, he defers to the pushier kids who will always jump in first, and to the self-confident ones who are always telling others what to do or that they're wrong. We're starting to work on role playing responses to this for him now. I am hoping too he comes into his own and finds more like-minded friends at high school.

I could have written this OP.

I don't know what the answer is but I feel the same way.