Future DIL WWYD

[Notwavingimdrowning]

Huge backstory that I've posted about before under a different username, so I will keep it quite brief ! My future DIL hates my family for some reason that we don't know about, despite practically begging for her to explain what we did / do that makes her hate us so much and therefore be able to sort it out. I know that MIL get a really bad time on MN, but can honestly say that we have been nothing but kind and welcoming to her from the beginning, if anything I admit probably over compensating for the rude way she behaves. She is coldly polite in front of my DS, but will completely blank us if we bump into her when she is on her own. ( in a relationship with DS for 10 years and she has always been this way). I have spent so much time analysing every conversation that we have had to figure out if I have offended her in some way but she hates us all as a family and refers to us as losers, overheard by a very close friend that she didn't realise knew who she was. We are just a normal family, live in a lovely but modest house and have never been in trouble so I don't understand why she considers us to be losers.
Anyway, we work in the same field but not in the same place, but recently I had to visit the department where she works, several times in the same day. I was with a very senior member of staff who knows both of us and knows she is engaged to my DS but is not aware of how she behaves towards me. On 3 separate occasions she saw me and though I said hello, made a point of turning her back to me in order to not have to acknowledge me. At one point I was actually close enough to reach out and touch her ( I didn't !) before she marched off to a different area away from me. By this point it was completely obvious to the manager that there was an issue and when we left he discreetly asked me about it and to my utter shame I started to cry and told him everything. I felt totally humiliated and embarrassed, but he was lovely and advised me to speak to my DS. I did and he must have asked her about it as I've now received a text from her to say that she's sorry, she didn't see me, I was mistaken as she was so busy, she would never deliberately ignore me, blah blah blah, but it just isn't true and definitely not how it happened. I decided today that enough is enough and I will no longer spend any more time worrying about her and trying to make her like us. I know that you cannot force someone to be respectful and I finally decided to leave them to get on with their lives and stop trying to be part of it, as much as it breaks my heart to essentially cut off my DS, as I also realised that I actually blame my DS for allowing this to go on for 10 years.
WWYD ? So far I haven't replied to the text. Would you ignore ? Reply with the truth, so essentially call her a liar ? I'm not going to say I was mistaken because I wasn't ! I know she saw me, she knows she saw me. Please wise people of MN tell me what to do.

OP, I would agree with Online's post above. No point in having it out with someone who will only relish the confrontation drama! You can stop dissecting the last 10 years of your behaviour now because this DIL sounds like a textbook controlling abuser. Harsh? Not at all; the behaviour you describe, if you're accurately describing it, is abuse in that she is isolating your DS from his family every chance she gets (including manufacturing drama, as Online has said) and is trying to control every situation. She sounds like my grandfather, tbh. He managed to completely isolate his wife, and for the most part his children, from his in-laws (who lived 2 miles away). The route they took, and the route anyone can take in this situation, was to simply continue to offer support to their daughter (my grandmother) and their grandchildren. They were always there for her, refusing to let the manipulative and abusive man who married their daughter create conflict between them and their child. As hard as it is, you cannot liberate someone else from an abusive relationship; they have to do it themselves. But you can make sure DS knows that he is the priority for you, and that you and any future children are always there for him regardless of the woman he is with. I know this sounds bleak, but it's a way forward for you and your sanity knowing you are doing all you can, and you don't have to engage with her!

*sorry, should read "you are there for him and any future children", can't edit the post!

She might well just be socially awkward or an introvert, or maybe you're a little full on and she doesn't know how to/want to deal with it. I'm not being mean by saying that but just because someone isn't overfriendly with you doesn't mean they're being rude or a liat.

There's a huge difference between being an introvert and being rude, though. Sitting in a car honking a horn, or totally blanking someone is the latter.

(I can't bear people who ignore others!)

How would you describe DS's childhood? Would you say anything happened that he's confided in DIL, to make her the way she is to you?

That's another thought that he has a grievance of some sort, told DIL, this happened when I was growing up. They've decided to NC. Or he's said something about his childhood and DIL doesn't like it, so she's behaving how she is.

You won't gain anything by confronting her.
Always, always work through your son so there is no chance of any second hand stories being related to him or her twisting the facts.
Make sure any conversation you have is with him in the room. That's the key thing here - to protect your relationship with your DS.

just because someone isn't overfriendly with you doesn't mean they're being rude or a liat

She's being rude. And she knows it.

OP I think for your own sanity you're going to have to bring this to a head. You probably won't get chance to speak to DiL, so it will have to be DS, but it's time to say enough's enough. You already know how you're going to be treated at the wedding - your immediate family there on sufferance and 90 of her friends and family. What about if/when they have DC of their own? They'll treat you the same at the christening, her parents will be all over their grandchildren and you'll see them once every two months if you're lucky.

I would suggest a meeting with your son - because he's as much a part of the problem as she is. Coldly but politely tell him that you will no longer be treated like this by her and him (make sure it's clear to him that this is not just an issue with her), you will no longer be fobbed off with weak and palpably untrue excuses when you call them out on her behaviour, you will not be treated as third class citizens when you're all together.

Put the ball firmly in his court. I know you love your son, want him to be happy and want to keep him in your family. Setting out your boundaries may cause him to choose her. I know you've said you don't want it to be 'me or her' but it's probably come to that by now unless you're going to let her have the upper hand. That would hurt. But so too will a lifetime of her future behaviour.

What do your other children say about the situation? Apologies if I've missed it.

I'm very surprised one of them hasn't massively had this out with him.

Also, you sound very close to DS, have you actually sat him down after events like the engagement party / restaurant seating and asked him 'do you think this is ok?'

From a DIL point of view, I'm afraid I have withdrawn a lot from my MIL.
Her visits for me are filled with me intermittently hiding upstairs feeling resentment.

I feel judged, my parenting judged, our lifestyles judged (for working too hard) DS 'not really' needing assessing for SN, our diet, our lack of longing to garden after a 60 hour week each, her having to be present for. Every Single. Special. Occasion - that in itself is ok but she stays here.

I would love a Christmas morning with just DH and the kids opening presents - I was granted a reprieve last year as she went upstairs to cry because the DCs had too many presents disgusting apparently.

Add to that the fact that DBIL is an absolute cock who has treated us all like shit for many years is treated like the prodigal son.....

She'd say we get along fine btw. She really would, because I make her welcome, I want the DCs to have a good relationship with her, I want DH to be happy.

Just shows you peoples different perspectives.

TheDevil, No it really doesn't make you rude, at all, if you don't want to speak to someone. Some people just don't want to. She wants to be with OPs son, that doesn't mean she wants to be best friends with his mother. Her version of what is acceptable in public may differ. Especially in a work environment. I would avoid any kind of overt contact with family or close friends in a workplace, because frankly it's not professional. You might not be like that but plenty are and maybe you need to realise that not everyone is like you or your expectations.

TheDevil, No it really doesn't make you rude, at all, if you don't want to speak to someone.

On what planet Wando ? I mean assuming there is no history of aggression/rudeness on the part of the person being blanked. Not speaking to someone (esp when that someone is the mother of someone you claim to love) because "you just don't want to" is just plain rude, petulant and childish. Anyone can be civil.

And whilst typing this I have been tempted to intersperse an imho or two, but surely not...surely this is a matter of fact, not opinion?

There is a million miles between speaking/being civil and being 'best friends'

what a Damascene conversion you seem to have had

Yes and no.

I left DH 1.0 about a quarter of a century ago. Time, space, the fading of emotions and getting older all went a long way to help create a far less biased perspective.

But there has certainly been an accelerant in the form of One Big Zap From On High. A death. Followed by a rather complicated grief as somebody who was the collateral damage of the person I was emulating.

The weight of knowing I have been guilty of following in my father's footsteps is knee buckling enough that I have had to do my damndest to put down the coping mechanisms I have quite clearly borrowed from him. The only way to do that is via as complete an internal honesty as possible, in as many areas of my past, present and future as I can..

Keeping the self serving view of my personal history will likely keep me trapped in the craters left by his choices for as long as I have left. Accompanied by an "if only" grief that I find unbearable and exhausting.

I can't bring him back. I don't have a time machine I can use to reverse things and engineer events to make things different between us. But I can avoid being my father's daughter when it comes to creating a personal theatre of pain that I am directing and starring in. Where it's everybody else's fault and the protagonist gets to feel perpetually hard done by, thus legitimised in creating human shaped collateral damage.

That much I can do. For my own sake as much as anybody else's.

Admitting I was an arse of a DIL the first time around is actually one of the easy parts of the process.

She sounds very like a friend of mines exdw. Particularly with how she treats your family and yet is very involved with her own. My friends ex really tried to cut him off not only from his family but also his friends. Wasn't until after they separated that he admitted that she hated us and that's why he struggled to make any arrangements to see us. She was civil to his family but never made any effort with them which really upset his mum. His Dad died while they were still married and he was devastated they were very close but she barely acknowledged his grief or seemed to care.
They are divorced now and he is so much happier just a shame he wasted so many years on her. His family are lovely and there was no reason at all for how she treated them.

It may be worth finding out if she treats his friends similarly to how she treats you guys? because if she does it sounds like she wants him to leave behind all of it for her and if that is the case I don't see the marriage lasting too long.

As for text reply I think I'd say "thanks for clarifying but unfortunately you did come across as quite rude and (boss name) also noticed and questioned me on your behaviour"

She sounds rude and entitled. She doesn't know you but can't be bothered because she doesn't deem it worth her time. My mil comes across very nice but she's been underhandedly quite rude to me eg when second dc was born turned up with nothing for me or the baby but a box of my dh's favourite chocolates and something for my elder child (she was favoured as she looks like my dh). Amongst many. My dh never called her out on it so contact has been greatly reduced. She's not my cup of tea personally as we're nothing alike. It's civil when we see her (though she rarely bothers these days).

I personally would leave it alone. Be civil if you see her but continue the relationship with your son. You could analyse for hours when it might be she simply doesn't want to bother and want more people in her life. The fact that your son sees you during the week is great and I'd keep on with that. Invite dil via your son but let it be. Sorry you're going through this though as it must be tough. Some people gain a daughter. But some lose a son.

OP, do you think there is any chance that there has been some far back historical incident involving other family members etc that might account for the breathtaking rudeness of birth DIL and her entire family? Something like your grandfather sacking her grandfather or similar?

I would be so angry with ds in all of this. He's enabled her bloody awful behaviour way too long. Have another talk with him and explain how worried you are about the wedding and family life going forward. Be clear she doesn't have to love you or see you every week or anything like that but the odd family meal, being involved with any gc, being treated with respect....all entirely reasonable.

In terms of work I'm sure she's been clocked and her manager won't forget this so she might regret this at least though it will probably be rewritten as being your fault.

I think your son has put his foot down on this occasion and told her she must apologise. I think the reason she's actually listening to him thoughis that she knows you've discussed this with the boss and she doesn't want to look bad in front of him - unfortunately it's unlikely to be a heartfelt apology. Don't however throw your son's efforts back in his face by talking about cutting him off etc. If she's like this with your family and you can think of no reason for it then it's unlikely she is easy going and low maintenance at home. Your son sees you regularly and wants you in his life - he clearly can't force her to be a good daughter in law.

I would reply and say thank you for the text i really appreciate you sending it. How about we go for dinner with your parents too at (name her favourite restaurant), on Saturday evening, our treat. Take care, pink

By doing that you are accepting her apology and calling her bluff. If it's really not an issue then she can come
To dinner. She may feel more comfortable with her parents there and although mil will have heard negative stuff about you, try and be friendly and that may be a way to make the situation easier. I doubt it will resolve it but your son will think you are wonderful. Still tongue, wise head. Even though he's your son and it's hard, you need to keep your true feelings to yourself as much as possible. My sister was in a very similar situation and took so much from her dil before she blew. Daughter in law was handed by my sister her head on a platter. Play the long game. Ask her lots about herself whenever you see her - people can't help enjoying talking about themselves

It doesn't sound nice BUT to give another angle...

I have to pretty much ignore my PIL for weeks/months at a time. Every time we meet with them they just get so over excited and I can't shake them off for the next few weeks until I literally have to go into hiding again. Think phoning 3 times a day, turning up at the house EVERY DAY, bringing us things we don't want/need/are totally bizarre. They're not nasty just totally over the top. We have nothing in common at all and they often just sit in deathly silence while waiting for me to bring up the next topic of conversation. It's exhausting.

I'm not a rude person but I find this behaviour really strange and actually a bit frightening. Is there a problem with boundaries in this situation that you maybe didn't intend op?

Waitrose sound a bit like a vicious circle to me.

Maybe if you didn't ignore them for weeks/months at a time....????

Just a thought

I wish you were right, unfortunately it has become the only way to deal with it-even Husband agrees. It was the same for him growing up, hence why they have never been particularly close or got to know each other very well-he had to keep them at arms length or it just got silly. He's a very shy person because of it.

So reward her awful behaviour with a free dinner at a nice restaurant, booitsme? Really? You must be a saint or an utter fool if you can manage this.

I'm probably barking up the wrong tree here, but is this a class thing? Does she think you're 'middle class', someone who would look down on her family a bit? Not saying that's true, but could she have invented this scenario in her head?

Jealousy is such a powerful emotion, and for someone to behave so badly there must be strong feelings involved somewhere. It's hard work being so unpleasant for so long, what's in it for her except keeping you at arm's length, and your families apart. Does being around you make her feel inferior?

When you say you have a lovely but modest home, were you actually being modest?

My take is she seems to take after her family.And the text I think the senior boss might have had a word.So it's damage limitations. She doesn't want the boss to think bad of her

I wouldn't answer the text,polite if you meet but otherwise radio silence.Give her what she wants and your own life will be hassle free.

Fairytales suggest a potential issue regarding siblings and that is exactly my situation. The Op could be describing me (she's not, it's just my relationship with Mr Elbows' family is the same) but told from my point of view it's very different. Mr Elbows is one of many and he has some sisters who have been absolutely vile to me and to us. Essentially the problem is that we come from different worlds and I am not what they wanted for him or for them. I'm ok with that but what I am not ok with was the constant personal insults and the damage they tried to do when our first child was born. I am not unreasonable to object to having my husband told that his newborn child probably wasn't his and at the same time he should seek to throw me out of our new home and take custody of said baby from me!

I choose not to have people like that in my life. I am not a child, I no longer have to accept being bullied. I am not obligated to accept abusive behaviour because the man I love shares dna with someone (none of you would ever say that to a woman whose issue was with her partner). So I withdrew, because they clearly didn't want me, but they didn't want to not have me either so the most vicious sister took to social media to stalk me and insult me that way. I will not tolerate that and I will not expose my children to people who think it's OK to treat their mother that way. We ARE better than them and I am not afraid to think that.

That said the situation could most probably have been minimised if my lovely lovely husband had a spine. Not once, ever, did he stand up to them and say enough. It's my only complaint about him. He is genuinely a wonderful man apart from the fact that he's like an obedient pet when it comes to his family. He's never stood up for me and I know that he would never stand up for the children because he is so conditioned to behave in whichever way his family want him to (it's horrible, it's like he becomes someone else). So, op, maybe your son shoulders some of the blame in your situation? Mr Elbows too would "pop in" on our way to somewhere else and be found 25 minutes later nursing a cup of tea and plate of whatever! It's a two way street.

I'd be interested to hear the story from the dil's point of view because "she's a bitch" is just a bit too simple.

“She might well just be socially awkward or an introvert”

My line manager at work is very much an unsociable introvert, but she is not rude. If someone says hello to her she doesn’t turn her back on them and ignore them. There is a difference between being an introvert and being downright rude.

“TheDevil, No it really doesn't make you rude, at all, if you don't want to speak to someone”

So if someone you don’t want to speak to says hello to you, you think it is OK to turn your back on them? Well, it isn’t. It is extremely rude. In what world do you think this is OK? Did your parents never teach you any manners.

The only person I know who does this is on the autism spectrum and doesn't realise he is doing this.

We have met her family twice in 10 years and on the 1st occasion they were quite PA e.g. We met a a restaurant for a meal and they had arrived early and positioned themselves and the table at one end with a space left for DS between them leaving us at the other end with a large space dividing us, any attempts at conversation were quite stilted. On the 2nd occasion was at DS house warming, only myself and DH + our other children invited from our side of the family and about 40 others from their side and their friends and not a single person other than DS spoke one word to us, we left after a couple of hours

I'm sorry op but I think what happened in the resteraunt is quite telling. The in laws clearly had a problem with you before they even met you, and positioning your son in between them suggests they believe he needs their assistance in keeping away from you. The fact no one spoke to you at the house warming is horrible, but again, your son was ok with it.

Your son is not naive or innocent in this. I would honestly wonder what he has been saying and why he has given these people permission to treat you so badly. His silence about it speaks volumes. It's my guess that your son is actually the person with the problem with you.

Nothing against you op but there are alwaya two sides (or two perspectives as it were)

To my pil, I am the dil from hell. Controlling their son, isolating him from their family, denying them alone time with their grandchildren.

From my pov?

I supported dh past his drink problem, he is now teetotal through his own choice. Pil and whole family are all extremely heavy drinkers (regularly getting so drunk they can't stand up and scream abusive crap at each other. Christmas was fun. And also explaining why they aren't allowed to have dc on their own)

I am close to my family, that's because I regularly keep in contact and arrange visits.

I believe it's dh's job to do this whenever he wants to see/talk to his family. I don't believe it's my job to do this in his behalf. He doesn't do it often (this is seen as my fault)