Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

[Mulledwine1]

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

You pass the cost onto your clients. Just like you do the cost of other things like the minimum wage/living wage/pensions/holidays and all the other things a decent employer provides. Or you shut down for the last week of August, or a week at Easter, or whatever, like factories do when they realise that actually a week of annual leave to spend with your family is a reasonable thing for an employee to ask.

The arguements you are using are the exact same employers have always raised whenever there is any suggestion that complying with environmental/social or health and safety legislation are raised. Yes it would be cheaper to discharge waste into the river, refuse to provide safety equipment or cut holidays back to a day off in January but it doesn't make it right.

I've not experienced, or heard apart from on MN about anyone being asked to prove absences by doctors notes. Doctors notes are now needed to prove that regular absentees are actually ill, the letter heads can be faked these days so that had to go.

You're blowing this out of proportion. Most schools will allow for lots of the situations that you have discussed, its very rare that they won't.

"Treating all parents as if they are liars." No one is doing that, fact is though that the schools are now required to provide evidence of what they have done, and what evidence there is of XYZ. If they don't they can be in serious difficulties.

This is about taking kids out for holidays not emergencies or illness, or to see dying grandparents or any of the emotive things you've attempted to make it about.

Could you change the field you're in, then?

I did and I know a lot of other people who did - I just couldn't have continued in my career once we'd made the decision to have children.

Sorry DannytheChampion but I refuse to engage with someone who is more concerned about my punctuation than what I am saying.

The word is very spelt v - e - r - y and that's alright we all make mistakes.

Genvieva - I don't think this is the end of it either. Am looking forward to later on this evening when I can sit down and read the judgement and its implications.

bit late now suburban - I am starting my succession planning for the business and hope to have retired in 4 - 6 years time so a bit late to change now.

I used to work in Local Govt. lovely pension, lots of annual leave when I wanted it but honestly prefer working for myself making my own decisions and have grown the business significantly since starting it.

No one needs holidays away. We were fine without them as children. Secondly rules are rules. I would not take a child out in term time. Well done Supreme Court.

Hopefully this will stop parents doing these unauthorised absences.

I intend to take my ds out of school for holidays when he starts in sept. I will pay the fine (if there is one) as it would still be worth it money wise. It's ridiculous how the prices increase so much once it's the holidays. It prices people out of holidays. I agree with the judges ruling but only because the man didn't want to pay the fine.

I think it's fine to take children out during term time at certain times of the year when they are often doing very little learning anyway for a reasonable amount of time. I wouldn't expect the school to authorise it though.

Barbarian As I said in my post, DD's teacher is exceptional. She also reserves the right to say no. Our school broke up on december 23rd and Christmas is celebrated on the 24th in Denmark so we would have had to have missed part of school if we were going to visit for the Christmas Day celebration itself.

Also, the point of the work given to DD to do while away is that when she came back she wasn't behind. I wouldn't normally ask for days off school because I agree that time away should be minimized. However, the savings were a consideration as well as having time in the build up to Christmas with family, two of whom are extremely ill. I don't see my BIL being around in 5 years as he has cancer that has come back twice now.

Overall, not everyone is the same and not everyone can fit in a neat little box. The system needs to take this into consideration and it currently doesn't. Quite frankly I think performance based pay for teachers is the most ludicrous idea I have ever heard of. If anything its parents who need to be 'incentivized' to make their kids pay attention in school and be active participants in their child's educational development.

It pains me to type that some parents need to be incentivised to do their job of parenting.... It is true. I am far far from perfect but I really want to see my DC do well in school, academically and socially.

Yes because criticising my typo after repeated posts showing your very poor grammar is accurate.

BTW, you can't be that good at business if you were so badly effected by the rate increases.

Hasn't bothered mine at all, as someone else said, we pass the cost back on to the customer.

Ruby, so far parents have been fined £60 per child per parent per total absence period - so £120 for a child for a week. However, the way absences are counted in the judgement seems to allow this to be £60 per child per parent per half day. This would be £1200 per child per week. Whether councils would actually do this I don't know, but it appears to be possible.

Hopefully schools will continue to use their discretion?

My parents owned and ran a restaurant...they were the only chefs...so closing in school holidays would have been ridiculous. We went for 2 weeks every January approx 1st-14th so did miss over a week of school. We took homework with us and were made to write a holiday diary. Honestly, we visited some of the most amazing places in the world and I definitely learnt more than I would have in that first week back at school.

So Genevieva its not just paying £120 that's being suggested now is it.

Lots of people seem to be failing to see this or grasp this fact.

It always was the governments intention to make the fine exceed the holiday saving. they seem to have achieved this by stealth.

Glad that so many people are comfortable with the fact that only the rich will be able to afford the fine or the increased prices. I am not. but then I am just an idiot who cant use grammar proper like!

Just asked me son what he thought, he is a teacher with nearly 20 years experience. He said he can't see the problem of kids missing 2 weeks a year, never been an issue with kids he has taught.

£1,200 per child. Oh dear. When does the penalty notice get issued? I am so not paying £2,400 when DS1's class are on a residential trip that he can't cope with because of his ASD and staying behind will bring a whole other set of issues. DS3 & DS4 have the most perfect DailyMail Sad Faces, I shall get the older two working on theirs!

Oh that's a shame, mummy.

But then I guess that's the choice you made when you started a family. Other people decide to change their job or career to fit in with the demands of family life.

My first reaction?
Beyond the holiday issue.
How can it be unlawful for a parent to keep their child off school? What if you feel the school is not safe for example?

If you are failing to ensure an education then the authorities have a point.

Not really possible for everyone to change their job just because school won't authorise a holiday, what a ridiculous idea. We often had to take holidays in term time, my husband was a highly trained detective, I think the murderers, rapists and thieves he took off the streets was worth letting the kids have 2 weeks of school.

No one needs holidays away. We were fine without them as children. Secondly rules are rules. I would not take a child out in term time. Well done Supreme Court

Hopefully this will stop parents doing these unauthorised absences.

I feel a combination of pity and frustration for people who think in such a limited and unquestioning way.

Frayed I am in the same boat. Two kids with autism who cannot tolerate crowds or heat. Also the Year 6 "journey" cannot happen. I will continue to holiday in term time and if as mummymeister suggests could happen, the powers that be try implement fining per session I will call my child in sick every day for the duration of the holiday.

We often had to take holidays in term time, my husband was a highly trained detective, I think the murderers, rapists and thieves he took off the streets was worth letting the kids have 2 weeks of school.

Was he the only one in the police station who caught criminals then?

"Hopefully schools will continue to use their discretion?"

Yes, of course. But it does rather depend on the calibre of your HT.

I am happy for people who pity me because I support schools and their rules as a matter of principle. I am right and the Supreme Court has said I am.

We often had to take holidays in term time, my husband was a highly trained detective, I think the murderers, rapists and thieves he took off the streets was worth letting the kids have 2 weeks of school.

I can see why he wouldn't be allowed holiday in the middle of a case, but not why murder or rape are generally more likely to happen in school holidays (other than Christmas/New Year).

I am delighted. Parents underestimate the impact of term tome vacations on teaching and learning.
Its up to the consumers to put pressure on the travel industry to stop the rampant profiteering. Teachers have enough to put with!

As for the comment about the 'highly trained detective' I am a highly trained psychologist and teacher - I was still able to take my son on vacation during official holiday periods of @16 weeks a year.
I am also pretty sure that rapists and murderers don't work 9-5 term times only.