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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

913 replies

Mulledwine1 · 06/04/2017 10:28

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

OP posts:
Genevieva · 06/04/2017 16:07

No because this thread isn't about the benefits of private school education - it is about the rights of parents to take children out of school during term time. There is an infinite variety of family and schooling situations that both benefit and disadvantage children.

Trifleorbust · 06/04/2017 16:12

windypolar:

No, didn't help. As I explained, I read your previous comments. If I have misunderstood you then I can't tell by looking at what you said.

DoloresTheRunawayTrain · 06/04/2017 16:12

A lot of people are missing the full implications of this. The case in question involved a holiday, yes and that's what's being used to obscure the issue of the judgement. The judgement was about authorised and unauthorised absences. This means if somebody at school decides they know better than you and that you child is not ill (authorised absence) they will then rule it as unauthorised. Do not be so naïve as to say it won't happen. It will, it already has. I remember a post on here from a furious parent of a child with health problems who had an issue with the school deciding they knew better than the childs medical team and were ruling absences as unauthorised (it may still be around if anyone cares to search.

There is also the more recent one where a child with multiple health issues who can only manage partial attendance is being told they will not be allowed home when they get too ill and the nurse is being told to go against medical advice and even when she medically thinks it necessary for the child to be at home to not allow it.

There will be more cases as there have in the past where unauthorised absence now means any absence. Funerals will be increasingly refused (there is an already small but increasing number of schools who have done this)

Many schools now insist on production of a fit note from a Dr as the deem appointment letters no longer sufficient. Drs don't usually do this for children and some charge for this additional service.

Now down to why this is being done by schools. As previous posters have said the school gets judged and penalised for all absences authorised or unauthorised. They can do nothing about the authorised absences so they are forced to turn all absences into unauthorised criminal and finable offences to appear as if they are doing something to address the problem.

Before anyone says but surely...No there is no flexibility and no common sense. EWO always repeats the mantra that children should be in school and their education is important so they don't fall behind. I fail to see how that is relevant to a child with a terminal condition whose parents are being hounded for them to attend school (yes it has happened with both terminal and serious but by a stroke of luck went into remission cases). Admittedly some still have a degree of autonomy but they are becoming few and far between and all end up towing the party line when it comes to a child with serious health issues who ends up having a great deal of time off. Not much is done to try to provide the child with a means to access some school work when they feel up to it. Instead, most of the energy is put into harassing the parent and threatening them with fines.

Some schools already are saying if your child is ill (even under a consultant with a serious issue) to send them in anyway and the school (who often times will not even have a school nurse or anyone medically trained) will decide if they are fit enough to attend. The result will be more children sitting in offices needing medical attention and not getting it. Cases have already occurred, you can find some of them here and this is just a small sample of the population.

People will scoff at the idea but just do a little research around various parenting and education forums and you will find these cases. I have one anecdote of my own from way back when I still attended school. Our schools head was new and keen to improve its reputation in all areas. It was by no means a failing school and had good results but they decided there was always room for improvement. They adopted a hardline approach to absence similar to the one we see emerging today. I'm sure there were other cases but one I actually witnessed was the case of a girl who had visibly broken a bone in a PE lesson being told by the head that she was lying and just wanted to get out of school. This was after the school nurse had approached the head for permission to ring the girls parents and get her to a hospital to be x-rayed.

DoloresTheRunawayTrain · 06/04/2017 16:13

Apologies for typos.

windypolar · 06/04/2017 16:18

If I have misunderstood you then I can't tell by looking at what you said
Hmm I'm not further clarifying my post to messiah for you, which, for some reason, you have taken in isolation and out of context. You attributed views I didn't make to me, my very first post refutes that. Now I suggest you take your own advice and 'leave it at that'.

Trifleorbust · 06/04/2017 16:23

windypolar:

I didn't ask you to. I said leave it, you kept on. That was your decision, so I was simply confirming that no, you didn't provide any further clarity. I am now done responding as you appear to prefer to be rude to anything else and life is too short for that. Brew

BrieAndChilli · 06/04/2017 16:25

When I was in primary school I had every Wednesday afternoon off to go to the secondary school for flute lessons and orchestra.
So I missed aprox 19 days of schooling a year, I managed to keep up with my learning.

DDs best friends misses several days a month of school to compete in climbing competitions and another little girls has days off to compete in gymnastics.

They are all extra curricular activities just like a holiday is!

Dannythechampion · 06/04/2017 16:33

Notthemessiah

Ironic that you have thought about my personal insult but used the word baaa, to describe all the people who agree with this as sheep.

You then seem to have read a post that was about someone else's post and think that its directed at you.

You can think for yourself? Well maybe so, but if you state educate your child, then you have to think also of the school with which you are working and the parameters they are under.

The whole isnisting on yourself and yours being treated as individual exceptional cases is what got us here in the first place, maybe not just thinking for "yourself" is what you need to do more of.

windypolar · 06/04/2017 16:33

I am now done responding

Well, thank goodness for that.

Dannythechampion · 06/04/2017 16:35

"When I was in primary school I had every Wednesday afternoon off to go to the secondary school for flute lessons and orchestra. "

Still possible, educated off site is allowed and students get it. As can attendance at competitions and such be allowed.

RainbowsAndUnicorn · 06/04/2017 16:36

Really pleased with the ruling, there are thirteen weeks a year for parents to take their children on holiday. Cost can be overcome, people can save longer, go away less or do overtime/second job if the luxury of a holiday means so much to them.

windypolar · 06/04/2017 16:38

Brie, a couple of pupils used to have a regular half day off for dance lessons, associate dance lessons that is. They were authorised, but dance, and other exams, usually are, though some have trouble securing this, depending on the school.

mummymeister · 06/04/2017 16:39

A holiday isn't a human right, you can go at another time during the year, Easter, Xmas, half terms etc. DannytheChampion

No, not everyone can go in other school holidays. that's not how it works in the real world of work. we are self employed in an industry where our what we do has to happen when schools aren't in school. so, I and all of my staff are unable to take ANY time EVER off in school holidays. if they asked I would refuse its in their t's and c's.

so please think about the fact that we don't all fit into the same neat little worky box. that some of us, quite a few of us actually, have completely non standard jobs. we don't have the option to just bang in a holiday request to our boss that we know will be authorised.

I am always staggered on these threads how few people are able to look outside of their own narrow experiences and recognise that there are loads of people who cant just take a holiday in school holidays and the law as it stands does not help this.

no, a holiday isn't a human right but right to family time is. and if you work all weekends and school holidays there is a very narrow point where this can occur.

Want2bSupermum · 06/04/2017 16:43

I really like what they do in our school here in the US. If you want to take your child out of school during term time for a holiday or other reason you need be approved by the teacher for it to be an authorized absence and have a plan for how class work will be completed outside of the classroom. Once the plan is put in place it is authorized by the principal. If you don't come back to school with all work completed the time out of school is marked as unauthorized.

We went to Denmark in December and missed 9 days of school, saving us $3500 for the flights alone. DD and DS (who yes at 3 and in school had a booklet of work to complete) both did their school work when we were in Denmark. It wasn't anything too complicated because they are so young. Everything was handed in on the first day back from school.

Oh and here in the US, with so many people not travelling outside of the US, when you do travel to another country and expose your DC to another culture the school is very much behind it. DD's teacher is exceptional and I was surprised when at our meeting she had a list of places she wanted us to try and take DD to on our visit to expose her to things not common in the US. It was simple things like visit a castle. She also had one of the suggested activities as going to the local swimming pool as the one in DH's hometown is amazing with water slides and other fun stuff which help with physical development.

BarbarianMum · 06/04/2017 16:43
Darkblueskies · 06/04/2017 16:45
Dannythechampion · 06/04/2017 16:46

Yes there are exceptions, and if you are one of the few people that can never ever get any time off in holiday time its unfortunate.

Like I said though, EVERYONE thinks their exception is valid and then once you start making exceptions for some, the piss taking starts and its the schools that suffer.

I know a few people won't be able to take holidays when the kids are off.

Essentially you're telling people that they need to look outside their own narrow experiences, and defining that by yours. You want the exceptions for you.

mummymeister · 06/04/2017 16:48

barbarianMum don't be so insulting! clearly you have never run so much as a whelk stall let alone a business employing people.

how dare you accuse me of poor business practices when you know next to nothing about what I do.

you need to wind your neck in, get your head out of your backside and have a little go at living in the real world, with real people who have real jobs.

go on then, how do you employ more people when your business rates have just doubled?

Dannythechampion · 06/04/2017 16:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BarbarianMum · 06/04/2017 16:51

That's lovely WanttobeSupermum but I don't really think its fair to add development of 30x individual learning plans of varying length to a teacher's workload , just so you can save a lot of money. I guess if you paid her for her time and she was willing, it would be alright, though.

SuburbanRhonda · 06/04/2017 16:51

mummy

Could you change jobs to one which is more compatible with having a family?

mummymeister · 06/04/2017 16:53

Danny that's the issue isn't it. none of you who want to see the exemptions part set aside can foresee in the future any situation where you might be that desperate person.

there was a post on this a year or so ago. a woman brought up by her aunt. the aunt dies and so she wants to take her kids to the funeral. but because it didn't fall within the narrow definition of close relative she was refused.

and there are loads of examples like this. kids with grandparents abroad who are dying. what do you suggest, someone asks them to hold on and not die until school holidays?

you carry on saying its unfortunate. until one day of course it happens to you and of course, you will take it with all the good grace and be entirely happy about it.

are you comfortable with taking your kids to the gp for every bout of d and v and paying for a sick certificate? don't say this is fanciful, its already happening and its a total waste of NHS resources as well as treating all parents as if they are liars.

mummymeister · 06/04/2017 16:55

...and you could learn to spell very instead of being so goady and pompous. DannytheChampion

mummymeister · 06/04/2017 16:56

suburbanRhonda I am self employed running my own business so no this isn't possible not in the field that I am in.

Genevieva · 06/04/2017 16:57

Mummymeister - I agree. This may yet end up in the ECHR under the remit of a right to a family life.

Family holidays are an ordinary yet valuable part of normal family life and the exceptions outlined by the government at present are not sufficient to allow some parents to take their children on holiday without breaking the rules.

The observation above about mission creep and who gets to decides whether medical absences should be authorised and how they should be proven to be necessary is also worth taking seriously.

Conservative political philosophy is meant to be about small government and the elimination of unnecessary interference in people's private lives, yet this government seems to embrace all the worst aspects of both the right and the left, so we have a bloated civil service and ever more legislation that interferes with our private decisions imposed on us, combined with endless cuts at the grass roots for those in need.