Is it legal for a teacher to deny a child access to a toilet?

[NotTheMrMenAgain]

I have a friend whose DC, age 13, recently soiled themselves in class because the teacher repeatedly refused to allow them to go to the toilet (and were fairly dismissive about it, by the sound of it). It wasn't a small mishap - the rest of the class were dismissed and my friend called to collect DC.
Understandably, DC is mortified and horrified and my friend very upset and angry. There's been a verbal apology from the head of year to my friend, who said how upset the teacher involved was - but no apology from the teacher to the DC - the teacher had since ignored the child/incident.
AIBU to think this simply isn't good enough? My heart goes out to the poor kid, who knows what kind of mark it will leave and what sort of bullying/mockery it will set them up for.
Is it against a child's basic rights to deny them access to a toilet? It seems like cruelty to me. It this a common policy at secondary school? Apparently they aren't allowed to pop to the loo in between classes, only at break/lunch. When I was a teenager my periods were heavy and I wouldn't have made it til break without an accident!

Not all teachers have a TA pixies27

I might add that I don't exactly blame schools for that. I apportion the majority of the blame to regulations on schools, the way schools are planned, the expectations on teachers and schools and a society that is really unfriendly towards children and families generally.

I've never had a letter or information from either secondary about toilet in class times.

In case one I asked about three months in after numerous issues and was told there was a pass even though I had mentioned toilet issues to senco on the taster day.

School two I asked for one myself as soon as they started.

To be honest at the old school I was still telling my dc teachers she had sen and a diagnosed learning difficulty 18 months on because the management were failing to tell staff and dc were being punished for sloppy writing, messy or poor work or slow processing in class.

I think people have an expectation on teachers that actually can't be realised unless they are in small classes with well behaved motivated children.
In fact we have had suggestions that teachers should note the frequency of toilet trips in order to spit signs of diabetes. Do they not realise the huge numbers if children that are taught by one teacher in one week? It amounts into hundreds. Do you expect them to keep a loo register ?
And the person who said their child got marked down because they don't have a pen - what did you expect your child to write with? Perhaos you should be the one checking each morning that they have a pen. Because it's your child. Why do you expect a teacher to buy pens out if their own money? Or do you expect the general taxpayer to sub you because you can't check?

Apart from the odd accident and late diagnosis, most medical conditions are in most schools covered by medical passes.

offred please be reassured that there are many teachers who do not wield power over pupils. My classroom management relies on my relationship with the children I teach. I value them and I am on their side. My students know this; we're all on the same team. That means the boundaries are in place to protect that team. That my bit is making it as engaging and accessible and safe. Their bit is engaging and not doing anything that gets in the way of the job of the team.

I have many, many colleagues who have a similar ethos.

The teacher in this case was very very wrong, soiling yourself in class is an incredibly horrible thing to happen. Poor boy. No one can justify the teacher not letting him go, to each teacher saying "if a child looks distressed I would let him go" is clearly missing the fact that this child was obviously distressed. Teachers make mistakes, like with any profession some teachers can be dicks and in this case the consequence of the teacher not letting a child go to the toilet was pretty aweful for the poor boy.
I need a wee a lot, particularly around my period sometimes I have about 10 minutes where I can go from not needing it to absolutely desperate. At school fortunately I was almost always allowed to go in lessons but I need the toilet pretty much every hour, sometimes up to 3 times an hour, as you can imagine anxiety makes it worse. School was horrible because I spent the whole time worrying about needing the toilet in lessons, timing it to make sure I only needed to go once. I spent a lot of time not paying attention because I needed to go. I imagine a lot of it was anxiety related but it was horrible, my worst nightmare was that I would wet myself. And this was at a school where we were allowed to go!
We had to wait till we were doing out work and go one at a time but this worked fine, I'm only 21 so it wasn't that long ago, pupils still had phones etc.
And before anyone says anything yes, long journeys theme parks etc. Are difficult for me. I have been to the Drs about it and they've said theres not much that can be done.
I also had 4 friends at school who bled through their clothes due to periods. Only one of them the teacher would have known about, so to the teachers saying no one has had an accident in their class I would say the chance a girl has had s period accident is fairly high actually.

No, I expect my child to be looked at holistically and not subject to burdensome requirements which adversely affect their ability to learn or to enjoy learning because they are having to think about a million burdensome rules and following them rather than concentrating on their work.

Rules don't work if they are not fair and if the system regulating schools does not allow them to make rules that are fair then schools will not be able to educate pupils effectively.

If I forgot a pen at uni my tutor would lend me one. It wasn't a massive deal.

I also think it is ridiculous to berate a parent re the cost of pens but also claim that it is fine for schools to put pressure on students, families and the NHS and ignore all of the costs of that in terms of money and health.

Charlie

You should have had a note to allow you to go for a wee when needed.

surely that would have resolved the anxiety.

Schools IMO are really being forced to go down the route of 'one rule for you and another for me' if everybody is expected to use the NHS responsibly for example why do schools get to make up different rules about how the NHS is used? If the teacher's pen is compromised do they get put on report? do they get given a lecture about personal responsibility and the importance of checking all your equipment?

It's a pen FFS.

Most lessons 6 or 7 students want to borrow a pen. Sometimes they have one it's just easier getting me to run around for them than to look at the bottom of their bag. On average I'd get three of those pens back, more if I spend the last few minutes chasing them up, more if I spend minutes at the start asking for a deposit to borrow them. Add in the toilet requests (no the first time, keep an eye on them and see if seem to really need, let them go, pause when they come back in) and the general time wasting (he took my ruler! He's farted can I move seats! No you can't take my phone I'm getting the police!) it's a wonder any learning takes place at all. Of course some classes are better than others but it is all too common and affects learning more than larger (more infrequent) acts of poor behaviour.

But that is down to class sizes. I think really you simply can't expect kids who have spent 7 years in primary and probably a couple of years in nursery having everything provided for them to suddenly become super organised as soon as they get to year 7. It's unreasonable and if you have an enthusiastic pupil the consequences for having that expectation enforced so harshly e.g. Has pencil, calculator, maths equipment - ruler, compass, protractor etc, 2 full sets of different sports equipment all in school but can't locate pen or pen has exploded so you get put on report, you can't expect them to take the rules seriously in future or feel like school is a good place to be.

If you are getting into territory of punishing kids for essentially being kids then it's not sustainable because it is not fair.

Offered "Honestly living under that kind of pressure just results in children giving up on trying to follow the rules". What? The pressure to have a pen so that they are actually able to write some stuff down in lessons, enabling their teacher to mark it for them so that they can progress?? Oh my word! I hardly think that the requirement to bring a pen to school constitutes unnecessary pressure!! Take some responsibility as a parent and make sure your child has a pen each day!

No, the pressure of being put on report because they didn't have a pen for one lesson.

Are you being deliberately facetious?

No-one is saying children shouldn't be expected to have a pen for every lesson.

I'm saying that out of proportion punishments for minor issues don't work

It's a pen and even if she couldn't borrow one from the other 29 people in the class or the teacher/office she still had a pencil so could still write in the lesson.

Is it necessary and effective to put a child on report for that kind of thing?

She's moved to DS school now anyway so they are a bit more relaxed about that kind of thing.

SmileEachDay "My classroom management relies on my relationship with the children I teach." Yes, this a thousand times! I operated on this basis when I taught (including abroad with classes of 50+ kids), and the best teachers I had at school did as well. It amazes me how many teachers on this thread basically assume kids are all little buggers out to get them. If you have to enforce draconian and totally inflexible rules to ensure that the kids you teach don't play up, then you've got something wrong imo.

I can still vividly remember being in year 4 and repeatedly asking the teacher to allow me to go to the toilet because I felt sick and being told to be quiet and sit down, I think she regretted it when I projectile vomited all over her classroom

And quite honestly if teachers are expected to put every child who ever doesn't have one item of equipment at every lesson every time then they are wasting their own time and using up all of the measures in the school that can be used for improving discipline so early that they will run out of ways to tackle disciplinary problems. If you get put on report for not having a pen in one lesson what does the school do for other disciplinary issues? If you need a medical note for every day of absence how are you going to explain all of the unauthorised absences that will then result?

In regards to the pen, dc old form teacher used to have stationary sets of pen, pencil, ruler they could borrow.

If they asked in form there was no punishment.
If they could borrow off other kids fine.
If they got to lessons without then they got a telling off.

Worked well.

You seem to forget offred that pupils will often deliberately forget a pen in order to not do any work. A parent should fund pens. Not the school (and taxpayer). Not the teacher. A parent should check before school, and teach their child to be responsible for their stuff.

If you don't sanction because it's not important "it's only a pen" then they know that it's not important to bring a pen. (It will be sorted out, they don't face consequences). Perhaps no one has a spare. Or are you saying that a teacher must pay for and bring spares for your child to learn?

I'm not 'forgetting' or saying schools should not expect pens or sanction for forgetting. I am saying disproportionate punishment can have an adverse effect on engagement and discipline.

I work in the sort of school Offred where lots of children don't have a pen. In fact, I have baskets of pens available to minimise disruption to learning time while 15+ kids tell me they don't have a pen. Strangely though they all have a mobile phone....

offred

Have a read of your response to my post.

Here's my post
Children are not legally required to attend schools. They are legally required to be educated
They are only required to attend schools if the parents choose to register them in one

Here's yours.

Need - if your child is registered with a school they are legally required to attend it. If you were home educated you would have free access to a toilet. Children attend school for a number of years

Do you see where I actually specified that they were obliged to attend if the parents choice was to have them registered or did you randomly think I was not aware of that and required it to be pointed out?

"How do I explain to her that not only do you have to ask to go to the toilet, but the person in authority over you may deny you, and leave you to shit in your pants in front of your friends."

How is she going to get a job if she can't accept authority? There are plenty of jobs where you can't go to the toilet when you want to. I know someone who was at a meeting where an aide had to tell Tony Blair that no, he couldn't go to the toilet just before the start of a meeting with European ministers.
Same thing for bus drivers, checkout people and so many other jobs.

"I would be sacked if I left class unattended to go to the loo "

What if you were ill?
When I was at school the teacher could refuse to let you go during lessons, but not if you said you were ill. We were allowed to go between lessons, thankfully.

Goodness, is this still going?

Of course it isn't too much pressure to expect students to bring a pen. If that's too much pressure, what is expecting them to do any work??