Is it legal for a teacher to deny a child access to a toilet?

[NotTheMrMenAgain]

I have a friend whose DC, age 13, recently soiled themselves in class because the teacher repeatedly refused to allow them to go to the toilet (and were fairly dismissive about it, by the sound of it). It wasn't a small mishap - the rest of the class were dismissed and my friend called to collect DC.
Understandably, DC is mortified and horrified and my friend very upset and angry. There's been a verbal apology from the head of year to my friend, who said how upset the teacher involved was - but no apology from the teacher to the DC - the teacher had since ignored the child/incident.
AIBU to think this simply isn't good enough? My heart goes out to the poor kid, who knows what kind of mark it will leave and what sort of bullying/mockery it will set them up for.
Is it against a child's basic rights to deny them access to a toilet? It seems like cruelty to me. It this a common policy at secondary school? Apparently they aren't allowed to pop to the loo in between classes, only at break/lunch. When I was a teenager my periods were heavy and I wouldn't have made it til break without an accident!

leccybill:

Agreed. It is easy to say your own DC would be fine going to the bathroom unsupervised. It may be harder to imagine a context in which the freedom to do this extended to 1400 teenagers would be reckless, at best.

Aeroflotgirl
I'm not a fan of absolute "no" approaches for that reason.
My criticism in that situation is with the member of staff who signed a note for 3 friends to be late to my lesson so all 3 could "go to the toilet". Often the staff who say yes all the time first time are known to the kids so theyll ask regularly to go in their lesson and their signature is almost always in the "leaving class" page in student journals.
Staff doing that (usually the ones who the students say are 'cool' and 'have banter'. ) makes it harder for those of us who are fair because when schools move towards more draconian policies its usually because some staff cant seem to exercise appropriate discretion.

We've all been kids before and know how kids can be. Its why the adults need to manage the situation appropriately so that staff discretion doesnt get removed.

It's staff who are lenient, and students taking the piss, like in that situation, that makes it hard for everyone else. As a result kids like myself or the one in the op have had accídents in class.

Absolutely Aero.

All it takes is for all staff to be reasonable and exercise discretion appropriately and the issue disappears.
I always see it as teenagers will try to take the piss. Its part of being a teenager. The adults should not enable it. Plus its so annoying when you say 'no' and they reply "but Mr Brown says we can go! See i told you Mrs Maisy would say no." Good on Mr Brown for always saying yes. You also point out that Mr Brown is 'cool' and is 'chill' about homework too. Mr Brown will be frantically calling you back for lots of extra revision sessions and in trying to get you to catchup work, redo courseowork etc because exams are close and Mr Brown has realised that being "chill" isnt going to get students the grades they really want. Then in the run up to exams youll turn to my lesson complaining that "mr brown has been all moody and stressy" and is "boring" now.

I know, it was 25 years ago since i was one, but seems like yesterday now. Teens will take the piss, they won't necessarily have the foresight to know the impact of their behaviour on others.that if they keep taking the piss, it's going to affect those who really do need the toilet

It's ridiculous to hear teachers bleating on about this, because they aren't doing their job properly and maintaining control of the class - so that pupils are only asking put of genuine need, and not to muck about. With respect, if your pupils had more respect for you, you wouldn't be concerned about this, and would be able to trust that they'd conduct themselves properly.

If as a teacher you needed the loo (you were on your period and felt you were leaking, or you felt your stomach churning to herald a bowel movement about 20 mins ago and you realised you just couldn't wait another 30 mins for the lesson to end, are you honestly saying you would

a) flood all over your clothes / chair or
b) shit yourself?

Like fuck you would. You'd get up and leave the classroom for 5 mins, like teachers have done since time immemorial. In my schooldays teachers often used to leave the room for a chat, to get a tea/ coffee, or for a fag, but anyway...

So if a teacher would leave the room and consider it a basic necessity to do so, why should a child not be able to in the same situation?

Claiming it's due to risk of vandalism etc just smacks of lack of discipline, apathy and incompetence on the part of the school. As for the well one kid might do it, you're punishing many for the crimes of the few, which is pathetic.

And just to add...

When I was at school, you weren't allowed to use the toilet between lessons, or during. You could only use it at mid morning break. There was no afternoon break, at lunchtime the school was often locked so you couldn't get it to use the loo there. Although there were ways round this. You also couldn't use the loo after school.

As a result I spent 5 years drinking no more than one small cup of fluid during the day because I was worried about needing the loo and having no access to one. This has resulted in long term health consequences.

So thanks school, thanks a fucking lot.

Ah velvet the joys of having to listen to someone who knows all about teaching because once in the days gone by they were a pupil.

VelvetSpoon:

No-one is bleating. This is a safeguarding and learning issue. It is perfectly appropriate for the policy to be made by school staff.

I wonder velvet if it were so easy you could train to teach so you could demonstrate how it could be done?

@VelvetSpoon - teachers on this thread have already said that they are not allowed to go to the loo during a class unless they can catch a colleague going past in the corridor, who will supervise their class whilst they are gone.

In my schooldays teachers often used to leave the room for a chat, to get a tea/ coffee, or for a fag, but anyway

Ah, the old "when I went to school" has made you an expert in education wonders why I wasted all those years training

This is just awful and may have serious consequences mental health wise for the child. Fucking shocking. If I was the parent I would take this as far as I could.

I do not have a medical condition as such, but anxiety causes serious stomach issues for me. No one should ever be denied access to a toilet.

Ah velvet the joys of having to listen to someone who knows all about teaching because once in the days gone by they were a pupil.
But we're all crap obviously. Says someone who has never taught and bases their entire judgement on their own school days.

if your pupils had more respect for you, you wouldn't be concerned about this, and would be able to trust that they'd conduct themselves properly
Haha! Ok then.
(Waits to point out that the kids who show the least respect to staff usually have parents who speak of staff with contempt)

But we're all crap obviously

Has anyone said that? I don't agree. But I do think also that teachers are not infallible: they fuck up, they should make it right. And as a parent I will absolutely raise issues if the teacher has got it wrong. Fortunately for me - my DD's school is fantastic, she's been there since she was 2 and I am yet to have an issue with any teacher.

The other side is that I am a sports coach, and volunteer to deliver drama and music.

I would absolutely expect any parent to raise issues if I make an error of judgement.

Well there clearly isn't a simple solution because if there was, it would be in place and this appalling failure in duty of care wouldn't have happened.

Allowing toilet use during lesson time causes vandalism, disruption and bullying in the toilets. A blanket ban on using the toilet except at break time punishes those in genuine need. So does anyone have an idea that might be acceptable to both teachers and students/parents? There have been attempts to suggest possible solutions but none have been popular and I can't imagine a solution that wouldn't bring problems of its own.

I know "Back in my day" suggestions go down like a shit sandwich with current education professionals, but I am genuinely curious about why the hall pass system is no longer sufficient? I remember teachers, school secretaries and prefects patrolling the corridors throughout the day. Hall passes were issued if you left your classroom and had to be shown to anyone who challenged you on the way to the loo. (And someone ALWAYS did.) Occasionally someone would be caught heading towards the bike sheds instead of the toilets and they would be frog-marched to their head of year. Is this no longer acceptable?

I am not advocating a free-for all. Far from it. I absolutely agree that a system must be in place. But a blanket NO is not a solution. It's avoiding trying to find a solution.

I remember teachers, school secretaries and prefects patrolling the corridors throughout the day

because teachers are teaching (and with the amount we are losing together with the current state of school budgets there are less teachers available)

school secretaries are doing their jobs and again, less admin staff due to the budgets

prefects are in lessons preparing for their exams

JacquesHammer
You havent but you only have to browse MN to hear so many people who tell their kids to igbore staff and if the teacher has a problem then theyll tell school to fuck off etc.

Teachers arent infallible. Nobody is. But what Velvet was suggesting is that we're basically not respected and my take on that is yeah, we arent by some kids. But if you find parents who disrespect schools then theres no surprise their kids take similar views.
Thats very different to calmly raising a reasonable queery with a teacher

TheBadgersMadeMeDoIt
Most schools ive worked in have had a hall pass system
Staff sign it with a reason and time.
It works well when all staff use appropriate discretion.
Where schools ens up going quite draconian is when kids are being let out all the time etc by staff who dont judge situations (e.g. like the 3 girls i mentioned earlier). Poor hudgement ends up leading to blanket bans.

TheBadgersMadeMeDoIt

What makes you think that some schools don't run a similar system to the "hall pass" one.

Most of the schools that I have worked in do, and it is still abused by various pupils.

As has been pointed out some pupils will still organise a meet up between their friends during lesson.
Some can be found roaming the corridors at the other end of school.

These are (generally) the same pupils that are 5 - 10 minutes late to every lesson.

But on the brightside side we are only a few months from the "My child's teacher wouldn't let them go to the water fountain during lessons" threads.

Velvet i did the same I remember having a small drink with breakfast before i left home and then no drink all day so i wouldnt need the loo at school and i often didnt need to go for a wee till i got home again.

This was after i got fed up of holding myself in class. Consequently my bladder cant seem to hold much water now which is why its overactive.

But on the brightside side we are only a few months from the "My child's teacher wouldn't let them go to the water fountain during lessons" threads.
Ive been putting that debate out my mind since last summer.
Ours are allowed a bottle of water. I dont like them on the tables and students know they can have a drink when they like. They lose the ok to have bottles if they crinkle or play with them (or shale thek because theyve been frozen over night).
No going to refil them during class. Students are encouraged to manage their fluid intakr e.g. dont sit downing bottles and then complain you cant go to the loo every lesson.

To be honest, sensible and fair approach to bottles and toilets works well for me.

MaisyPops

I also find a sensible approach works well, tapered with a healthy dose of calling the desk for someone to look for them when they have been gone for more than 10 minutes.

We also have the same bottle rule, if its there and has water in it you can drink from it.
However, the amount of pupils that "don't have time" to fill up their bottles during break is immense.

No time at break/lunch to go to the loo or fill bottles etc. Always amazes me.
But you know what, theres time to wander the site and chat with friends etc.
Matter of priorities.