Toddlers on a plane

[gingertigercat]

I want to see how others would react in my situation or if my lack of sleep led to me being unreasonable.

On a rather long and early flight, hence the lack of sleep, I had a toddler behind me. The father was asleep in a separate row. The mother was asleep sprawled over 2 seats and the grandmother was looking after the toddler who was mainly on her lap. The whole flight he kicked our chairs, smacked the seats, grabbed at us, stuck his head through the gaps, and clambered between his grans lap and over his mum. He was loud throughout the flight. The gran did tell him a few times to stop smacking the seats but it did nothing.

I think had the mum just been asleep in her own seat there would have been much less disruption. I would have said something but I felt bad seeing as the gran wasn't the parent and I'm not very confrontational.

I understand toddlers can be hard work and the parents were probably exhausted but surely it shouldn't have been at other passengers expense? What would other people do in this situation?

So ridiculous. No one is saying that they don't try to keep their toddlers entertained and docile. My children flew from pretty much birth and we had very few awful flights. They were well-behaved but sometimes cried and sometimes kicked! Frequently people complimented us on how well-behaved they were. But sometimes they were cranky and sometimes they couldn't sleep.

If you're so vulnerable that missing out on one night's sleep means you will become ill obviously you shouldn't be flying. If you are unusually frail you need to take that into account when you plan a trip. You shouldn't expect the other 200 plus passengers on the plane to worry about the contingency that you might be on their plane. And if you are going for a job interview, believe me, the adrenaline will carry you through. When I used to travel long-haul on business I kept going for hours on adrenaline. You slump afterwards and then on the return flight you sleep through anything.

Nobody is suggesting that parents allow their children to misbehave. But the idea that we should all curtail our lives because of something that might or might not happen is bizarrely self-obsessed. When I fly long-haul I accept that it might not be a great experience. People of all ages and fitnesses have to get all over the world for reasons we know little about. It's incumbent on everyone to try to minimise discomfort and annoyance for everyone else while travelling. That doesn't extend to not taking a life-changing job abroad because in 18 months' time you might have to fly with a toddler who is just getting over a bad chest infection and there might be someone on the flight who will get ill if they don't sleep.

To the pp saying that if you can't handle being on a flight with children, you shouldn't fly -
You will probably be delighted to know that I have never flown, and it's largely because I would hate to be stuck in an environment with unruly toddlers. I have really bad anxiety and the thought of not being able to escape would push me too far I think.

If that was to me (and I don't think I said that, but I suppose you could have interpreted that way), then of course I'm not delighted. I think it's very sad that your anxiety is so extreme that you have been unable to experience air travel and that you haven't been able to find any help to get over it. Fear of flying or being trapped in small spaces is very debilitating. I know some people who've had great success with CBT and others who've found anxiolytics very helpful. If it's more flying than being confined, there are some excellent fear of flying courses run by the airports.

ArcheryAnnie I'm not blaming anyone for not being delighted about being on the same plane as me! on the contrary, I'm not delighted about being on the same plane as me when I'm flying with my younger DS. As pp have suggested, if someone really is so ill that losing a night's sleep could make them very sick, they really shouldn't be flying either- a night's sleep on a longhaul flight is in no way guaranteed regardless of any toddlers. But aside from that- in normal terms- we are all human beings who have to rub along together. I have been lucky in general that when we have flown, the other passengers have been generally sympathetic and kind. But nasty judgement really isn't helpful when someone is doing their best to keep a child quiet.

I can't have CBT.

And no it was directed to earlier comments.

I'm not scared of flying (although I have ever done it so I can't be 100%). The stories about marauding toddlers running around, the child that threw up on the person in front, that kind of thing, in a space where I couldn't escape would completely freak me out. I don't think there is any therapy to help that! I have accepted that I have the problem, children are unpredictable, so I don't travel.

Several years ago, when DS was 2, I was on a long train journey on my own with him between London and Edinburgh. He was being a total nightmare, over-tired in an unfamiliar situation and I was really struggling to keep him entertained/ contained, with some critical looks and tutting from people in the seats across the aisle. Suddenly, the elderly couple who were in the seats behind us began to pull silly faces at him and play peek-a-boo between the seats. This simple act of kindness completely transformed the situation and my DS calmed down and began giggling and smiling and was really absorbed in this new 'game'. They got chatting to me and were telling me about their own grandchildren and the whole experience became very pleasant instead of the stressful one that it had started out to be.

I've never forgotten that trip, and now I frequently fly alone (without DS) for work - often long-haul, with little sleep and intense work schedules to prepare for. I'm often the receipient of a frustrated toddler kicking the seat behind me or screaming and tantruming in front of me. However, knowing how it feels to be the exhausted parent, I always try and find some small way to engage with them - in the same way that the people on the train had done for me. This has resulted in some really enjoyable journeys, and I've got to know some really nice families and been part of their adventure for a few hours.

A smile and some empathy doesn't take much effort and it has a bigger impact than complaining about or criticising other people's parenting.

I only suggested CBT because I had a friend who got over a different anxiety very successfully with it. In fact the NHS recommends it for claustrophobia which sounds closest to what you've got. I don't know what the contraindications for CBT are but I would have thought pretty much anyone could have it (in fact my husband had it for GAD) but that's not the point of this thread anyway, and I'm sorry that you have these difficulties because it can't be much fun.

No - apparently I don't 'think the right way' for it to be of benefit

It's not claustrophobia, it's GAD but it's exacerbated by being around high pitched noises and a load of other things. So I would be the one getting more and more annoyed about little Johnny sticking his head through the seat gap, kicking the seat, crying, whatever.

I can't expect people to stop their children doing these things so I made a decision not to holiday etc as it would be too stressful.

Anyway didn't mean to derail, just to answer those who say that if you struggle to tolerate children on a flight, you shouldn't be flying.

My daughters ears were so sore on one flight and we kept telling her to swallow but was so distressed she couldn't do it and we had a flight of wonderful people, gave her sweets to suck, drinks crisps,a sachet of calpol, she was eventually ok but Was so pleased everyone tried to help and didn't spend the whole time tutting at us

Are usually carry stickers or other things in my bag, so if a child is being very noisy or crying and nobody is around, I just take out what I have and show it to them. It usually works and they are quiet.

I'm visiting my mum. It's a short plane ride (less than an hour) with my 20 mo. On the way here he kicked the seat in front, I saw the guy turn around. That was the one and only time he did it. I simply repositioned him or held his legs so he couldn't do it again. Ok, it was short journey so not hard but even if I'd been on a 10 hour flight I'd have done the same. YANBU!!! The parents are being lazy!

But the idea that we should all curtail our lives

...unless they are "so fragile" that being unable to nap on a long-haul would make them feel ill, then fuck them!

Also the idea that feeling ill after losing sleep makes you "too fragile" to fly at all - seriously, fuck you all, that's lovely abelism in action, right there. You demand endless accommodations and generosity for your kids, but have no sympathy or understanding for anyone else. I think this is time to roll out that overused MN word "entitled". You are all bloody entitled, and I pray that I will never be on the same flight as you.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta

Losing sleep can trigger a migraine in me. A migraine can make me lose between a day and three days. It's not serious, but it is INTENSELY painful, and time-consuming. It doesn't make me "too fragile" to fly, but it means when I do fly and am prevented from sleeping, it can ruin a great deal of the time I have available at my destination, as well as cause me serious pain. Migraines triggered by sleep loss are not unusual or uncommon.

Obviously, on a long-haul nobody can guarantee that you can sleep at all, and I have to factor it in. But it means that it's not just "inconvenient", or "a few hours of my life" if someone's child keeps me awake when all the other adults are quiet and otherwise I could get to sleep. Again, this condition of mine, and similar conditions, are by no means unusual.

And people who get ill when deprived of sleep also have all the same circumstances as people with toddlers who say they NEED to fly - they have moved house, they have ill relatives, they have job interviews, they have the holiday of a lifetime booked, they have conferences to go to, and all the rest of it. But fuck them! They are "too fragile to fly" and their needs don't matter at all.

But nasty judgement really isn't helpful when someone is doing their best to keep a child quiet.

But nasty abelism's totally fine, right, daniel?

My daughter is 7 and we live in London and regularly take mini breaks in the school holidays,around the UK and have been doing so for many happy years .
However I could not imagine taking her on a long haul flight and the thought of it makes me panic and start scratching at a old dried up spot under my chin,which my OH calls my stress spot.

daniel i don't think people are saying you should never travel, atleast i'm not.
You can't stop kids crying or screaming, it's life! People have to accept that.
Kicking someone's seat and grabbing it though is unacceptable.
That a person can stop.

If i miss a nights sleep it makes me feel really horrendous the next day due to my disability, apparently i should just stay home

ArcheryAnnie me too! ( though i also have other lovely side effects)

We recently flew to Spain with DD (aged 2). Had the potential to be disastrous as she hates to be contained and is about as strong willed and clever as they come. I was dreading it.

I downloaded Ben and Holly onto the iPad. I packed (ample) stickers, books, little toys....and I intensively entertained her for the full flight. She sat like an angel.

When we had first boarded the plane, the man across the aisle from us shot his wife a 🙄 look. I noticed it and it made me feel really self concious. At the end of the flight, he said to me "what a well behaved child. And you did so well to keep her going".

Let me tell you, that comment felt better than all the praise I could have ever received at work or in any other aspect of my life. I was bursting with pride!

archeryannie no- and it's totally disingenous to infer that from what I said.

kali thanks for kind words/ understanding. of course I'm not saying you should stay home! I was just responding to a pp suggesting that my child might put someone in serious danger by making noise on a flight because that person might be so fragile that missing a night's sleep could make them seriously ill. My response was that someone for whom that was a real risk would be likely to choose not to fly long haul/overnight anyway, as it is very hard to get a good night's sleep at the best of times (noisy cabin attendants/ cramped seats/ turbulence/ constant announcements etc) for reasons that have nothing to do wtih toddlers. But obviously that's a personal choice/ risk assessment and it's obviously sometimes a necessity to fly anyway- just as it is for people with toddlers.

deliverdaniel all parents have to make compromises when they have children. Have you ever thought about arranging your life for the next year so you didn't have to fly longhaul with a toddler?

There are a lot of posters with a deficit of imagination on this thread. I had my worst flight when DD was two years old, I was 7 months pregnant with severe complications and I had to fly alone with DD because my dad had died abroad. Not everyone on a plane is on a jolly. Is that so hard to understand?

archeryannie missed your previous post. I'm sorry to hear about your migraines- that sounds very tough. I'm not quite sure what your point is though? That people with toddlers shouldn't travel in case it triggers a migraine in you?

deliverdaniel you're welcome.
Don't worry, it wasn't your comment